Talking Religion...

[JimsSweaterVest]

Good, and well then. We agree on something.

It's not too hard to agree with me. I have argued for and against all the following:
Catholicism, Protestantism, gay marriage, Islam, feminism, and many more.

If only the voices in my head would stop yelling at each other, I'd be able to argue against myself!

 

[Brewtus]

It being the 200th anniversary of Darwin's birth, let me offer this - I wish there were far more pastors and preachers like Henry Green of MD - a Southern Baptist who accepts and preaches Genesis as a spiritual truth, while telling his congregation that science has it right on the process, and believes in evolution:

While it's encouraging to see that there are religious figures that support evolution, I'm not sure I'd categorize him as a Southern Baptist, even if he calls himself that. The Southern Baptist Convention's official position statement discredits evolution so this guy is on the fringe. And I'm sure the church leaders aren't too happy with him claiming he's a Southern Baptist but not towing the corporate line. It's like a Catholic Priest who officiates gay marriages. He may claim he's a Catholic, but if you don't believe in the creeds of your religion I'm not sure how you can claim to be a member of that faith.

 

[buckeyegrad]

While it's encouraging to see that there are religious figures that support evolution, I'm not sure I'd categorize him as a Southern Baptist, even if he calls himself that. The Southern Baptist Convention's official position statement discredits evolution so this guy is on the fringe. And I'm sure the church leaders aren't too happy with him claiming he's a Southern Baptist but not towing the corporate line. It's like a Catholic Priest who officiates gay marriages. He may claim he's a Catholic, but if you don't believe in the creeds of your religion I'm not sure how you can claim to be a member of that faith.

I think you are confusing a denomination's creed or articles of faith, which would need to be assented to in order to considered a member, versus theological assertions made by the invested authority, which may be the official stance of the denomination, but are not required articles of faith one must consent to in order to be considered a member.

If you look at the SBC's "The Baptist Faith and Message" (linked below), you essentially get a creed of what must be believed by Southern Baptists. No where in it is evolution or issues of the creation process discussed. Thus, even if one was to disagree with SBC's official position on evolution, that does not disqualify him/her from being a member of the SBC, as say denying the divinity of Jesus would disqualify you.

The Baptist Faith & Message

 

[Gatorubet]

While it's encouraging to see that there are religious figures that support evolution, I'm not sure I'd categorize him as a Southern Baptist, even if he calls himself that. The Southern Baptist Convention's official position statement discredits evolution so this guy is on the fringe. And I'm sure the church leaders aren't too happy with him claiming he's a Southern Baptist but not towing the corporate line. It's like a Catholic Priest who officiates gay marriages. He may claim he's a Catholic, but if you don't believe in the creeds of your religion I'm not sure how you can claim to be a member of that faith.

Good point Brewtus, but then, the Southern Baptists are among the least centralized denominations around, and they really don't have the same sort of difinitive theological litmus tests (i.e. "creeds") that others do.

 

[Brewtus]

I think you are confusing a denomination's creed or articles of faith, which would need to be assented to in order to considered a member, versus theological assertions made by the invested authority, which may be the official stance of the denomination, but are not required articles of faith one must consent to in order to be considered a member.

If you look at the SBC's "The Baptist Faith and Message" (linked below), you essentially get a creed of what must be believed by Southern Baptists. No where in it is evolution or issues of the creation process discussed. Thus, even if one was to disagree with SBC's official position on evolution, that does not disqualify him/her from being a member of the SBC, as say denying the divinity of Jesus would disqualify you.

The Baptist Faith & Message

I understand what you and Gator are saying, but the SBC website also states that "...all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy." I fail to see how Genesis can be reconciled with evolution if one assumes everything written in it is "totally true". Extreme liberties must be taken and Genesis must be interpreted metaphorically if any kind of reconciliation can be accomplished.

But I'll confess that I don't know much about Southern Baptists. Although one did live on my dorm floor at OSU and we had some pretty heated debates about the Bible and evolution. She absolutely insisted that dinosaurs and man existed at the same time and there was no evidence I could provide that would change her mind. She was kinda hot, but unfortunately she was so closed minded (about sex too) and didn't drink. Not my kind of girl at all.

 

[Gatorubet]

She absolutely insisted that dinosaurs and man existed at the same time and there was no evidence I could provide that would change her mind. She was kinda hot, but unfortunately she was so closed minded (about sex too) and didn't drink. Not my kind of girl at all.

Did you ever prove to her that roofies and Tab could exist at the same time in a glass?

 

[Brewtus]

Did you ever prove to her that roofies and Tab could exist at the same time in a glass?

Unfortunately roofies weren't around when I was in school. All we had was alcohol to get girls to sleep with us.

 

[Jake]

If someone created "religion" these days we would never buy it. I could just see it:

"Let me get this straight...an invisible, all powerful, all knowing god used certain people to write dozens of books over several years in order to let us know what he has done for us, what he expects from us, and what he has in store for us when we die. This is, in part, the result of a power struggle among other invisible entities, one of whom was banished to a lake of fire where he waits to torment those who are condemned by our creator...the invisible, all powerful, all knowing god. But, the good news is if we are faithful to our creator we get to spend eternity in paradise surrounded by all of our loved ones."

But since all of this, allegedly, took place thousands of years ago we somehow find it plausible. It just goes to show people will believe almost anything in order to avoid facing their own mortality. Give them an attractive enough outcome, and they'll defend any story to justify it. :crazy:

 

[jwinslow]

Always good to have another installment of "you have to be braindead or scared stupid to believe"

How did it become established if we never heard about until thousands of years later? Talk about miracles.

 

[stowfan]

I understand what you and Gator are saying, but the SBC website also states that "...all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy." I fail to see how Genesis can be reconciled with evolution if one assumes everything written in it is "totally true". Extreme liberties must be taken and Genesis must be interpreted metaphorically if any kind of reconciliation can be accomplished.

But I'll confess that I don't know much about Southern Baptists. Although one did live on my dorm floor at OSU and we had some pretty heated debates about the Bible and evolution. She absolutely insisted that dinosaurs and man existed at the same time and there was no evidence I could provide that would change her mind. She was kinda hot, but unfortunately she was so closed minded (about sex too) and didn't drink. Not my kind of girl at all.

If you ever read the book of Genesis, you will find in the beginning of the book men living to 900 +. By the end of the book, men are dying at or around 70. There does seem to be a little "adaption" going on there

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

If someone created "religion" these days we would never buy it. I could just see it:

"Let me get this straight...an invisible, all powerful, all knowing god used certain people to write dozens of books over several years in order to let us know what he has done for us, what he expects from us, and what he has in store for us when we die. This is, in part, the result of a power struggle among other invisible entities, one of whom was banished to a lake of fire where he waits to torment those who are condemned by our creator...the invisible, all powerful, all knowing god. But, the good news is if we are faithful to our creator we get to spend eternity in paradise surrounded by all of our loved ones."

But since all of this, allegedly, took place thousands of years ago we somehow find it plausible. It just goes to show people will believe almost anything in order to avoid facing their own mortality. Give them an attractive enough outcome, and they'll defend any story to justify it. :crazy:

It's not just about mortality. It's also a justification for morality (no T).... among other things.....

For me, G-d is very unlikely to be found on the pages of a book. For me, the Bible is very unlikely to be anything other than the words of man, though sometimes it is about what man thinks of G-d. I think it's folly to say G-d wants us to act in some way, and not some other way.... and I'm given very little comfort believing that my life is simply some sort of "test" laid in front of me by G-d..... where I have to choose to believe what I regard as a ridiculous and internally invalid story or face eternal damnation....

But, those remarks, to me, don't ever really address G-d at all. In my mind, there must be a creator. I can't say I have "proof" of this "must" but, for me to make sense of the very simple fact that I exist... that this universe is here... I can't see any sensible alternative. Sensible to me, that is... I can't wrap my head around there having once been nothing, and now there is very clearly something which allegedly was born of that nothingness. So, I believe in a creator... but... I can't tell you what this creator thinks about things like honoring your mother and father... and, actually, it seems to me quite silly he'd have any opinion about it one way or the other. MAN has a vested interest in obeying such a command.... G-d? I can't see why he'd care at all. What difference would it possibly make him?

 

[Jake]

Always good to have another installment of "you have to be braindead or scared stupid to believe"

Religion makes no sense. There is no logical way to come to it or support it. As such, only emotion can lead to faith. Whether that emotion is fear, stupidity, or something else only the "believer" knows.

How did it become established if we never heard about until thousands of years later? Talk about miracles.

I never said we didn't hear about it until thousands of years later. I said we're told it happened thousands of years ago. Obviously, someone believed it at the time, passed it on, and the rest is history.

It doesn't take a "miracle" for foolish notions to persist for hundreds of years. It was established belief that the world was flat for a long time. Eventually, we realized the folly of it. Religion is much tougher to defeat because there is the greatest incentive in the world to believe in it...eternal life.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Always good to have another installment of "you have to be braindead or scared stupid to believe"

How did it become established if we never heard about until thousands of years later? Talk about miracles.

He makes a valid point, though, Jwin... I mean, if I told you that G-d spoke to me and told me I have to go kill my son you'd think I was hallucinating.... But... we're supposed to credit Abraham saying the very same thing?

And I don't think he is calling anyone braindead or scared stupid. I do think he's saying religion seems to him a way to psychologically deal with mortality, though.

 

[Jake]

It's not just about mortality. It's also a justification for morality (no T).... among other things.....

For me, G-d is very unlikely to be found on the pages of a book. For me, the Bible is very unlikely to be anything other than the words of man, though sometimes it is about what man thinks of G-d. I think it's folly to say G-d wants us to act in some way, and not some other way.... and I'm given very little comfort believing that my life is simply some sort of "test" laid in front of me by G-d..... where I have to choose to believe what I regard as a ridiculous and internally invalid story or face eternal damnation....

But, those remarks, to me, don't ever really address G-d at all. In my mind, there must be a creator. I can't say I have "proof" of this "must" but, for me to make sense of the very simple fact that I exist... that this universe is here... I can't see any sensible alternative. Sensible to me, that is... I can't wrap my head around there having once been nothing, and now there is very clearly something which allegedly was born of that nothingness. So, I believe in a creator... but... I can't tell you what this creator thinks about things like honoring your mother and father... and, actually, it seems to me quite silly he'd have any opinion about it one way or the other. MAN has a vested interest in obeying such a command.... G-d? I can't see why he'd care at all. What difference would it possibly make him?

Good post, although I'm not sure why you won't type the word God.

Nevertheless, I'm open to the idea of a God. I'm not an atheist. Atheists are just practicing their own form of religion. They are certain that God does not exist, but they can't prove it. The religious person is certain God does exist, but they can't prove it. Both assume a lot to get to their beliefs.

I believe that we don't know if god exists, or not. It is beyond our comprehension. That's why we cannot prove it either way. Accordingly, religion has to be false because it not only presumes to know god is real, but what god wants, what god has done, and what he is going to do in the future. That's not just faith, that's hubris. But it persists in large amounts even into the 21st century because we want to believe it.

Who wouldn't want to live forever, surrounded by loved ones, in paradise? I know I would, but I'm not going to blindly accept a ridiculous collection of inconsistent fairy tales that have been rewritten and translated countless times over hundreds of years, support entities that have killed millions of people over the course of history in the name of their religion, and pretend it actually makes sense just so I can go to sleep at night. I'm also not going to sit quietly while these archaic cults continue to be the center of conflict in the world today, just to avoid hurting someone's feelings (not yours, per se, but I know some don't like my views on this topic).

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Good post, although I'm not sure why you won't type the word God.

I originally began the habit out of respect for another poster on this board. After doing a little research on the reasoning, I adopted the practice. While I must confess, my idea about G-d probably doesn't care if I type out "God" or not... it helps me differentiate "who" I'm talking about...if I say "G-d" I'm talking about the creator... or... the "real" G-d... (if there is such a thing).. if I say "God" or "god" I'm usually talking about man's concept of G-d... and not the actual entity itself. (If that makes sense)