Some BCS facts for your SEC friends

[Steve19]

I found this on the LSU site (Tiger Forum)....

How deep IS the SEC? - TigerForums.com - LSU football - LSU sports - LSU Tigers - LSU message board

One of their own takes on the fallacy that the SEC is consistently better than the Big Ten. His post is below....

1.) Since 1993, the SEC and the Big Ten have had the most top 25 ranked teams at the end of the season, 58. Impressive right? SEC fans will probably now say something like "Oh, but the SEC plays harder schedules and the SEC is tougher so they're better"

2.) Wrong. Over the last 8 years (as far back as my source goes), the average Strength of schedule for Big Ten teams were far better than SEC teams. For instance, OSU had an average SOS of 14.375. The mighty SEC UF gator's SOS was 21.125. Bama's was 22.875, and Auburn's was 43. The same held true for other Big Ten schools, PSU, Michigan, Wiscy all had a better average SOS over the last 8 years. Here's the source too, look it up yourself:

[URL="http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/1993_archive_computer_rankings.html"]http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/1993_archive_computer_rankings.html[/URL]

Now SEC fans will probably alude to last year's national championship game and the SEC's "dominance" over Big Ten in bowl games.

3.) The Big Ten went 2-1 against the SEC last year, and are 8-6 over the last 5 years. SEC fans might make a bogus claim of BCS dominance, but...

4.) The Big Ten has had 15 BCS bowl bids, the SEC has had 13. Now the SEC fan is getting desparate, and might claim that the SEC has better players...

5.) The Big Ten has had 5 heisman winners over the last 15 years, the SEC has had 1.

Now you SEC fans might be saying "well the SEC has much better depth than the Big Ten (or as you hilariously call it, the Big 3):

6.) Wrong again. Let's take a look at conference winners over the last 8 years:

Big 10 Champions
06- OSU
05- OSU, PSU
04- Iowa, Michigan
03- Michigan
02- Iowa, OSU
01- Illinios
00- Michigan, Northwestern, Purdue
99- Wisconsin

SEC champions
06- Florida
05- Georgia
04- Auburn
03- LSU
02- Georgia
01- LSU
00- Florida
99- Bama

Since 99, the Big Ten has had 8 different teams at least share the conference title. The SEC has had 5 teams win the conference title over the same span. Also keep in mind the SEC has one more team than the Big Ten. Which conference is deeper now? You guys might complain that the Big Ten doesn't have a conference title game, and they can share conference titles. Alright, fair enough, you got me. Even if we take away the tiebreakers and award the Big Ten conference title to one team in each of the disputed years, the Big Ten has anywhere from 4-7 teams winning the conference title over the last 8 years, depending on who you give the title to. Stiil, proving they are just as deep as the SEC.


He gives as good as he gets...interesting reading

Thanks for posting that!

 

[Gatorubet]

Thanks for posting that!

Since there is no Big-10 championship game, there is no way of knowing how many different teams you'd have as champion, and to use that as proof of depth versus the SEC is less than useless, IMO.

 

[Steve19]

Since there is no Big-10 championship game, there is no way of knowing how many different teams you'd have as champion, and to use that as proof of depth versus the SEC is less than useless, IMO.

Your point, with which I agree, is that the comparison should be between like measures. It isn't because only one SEC team can be champion each year, by definition, due to the championship system.

It would be interesting to see which SEC teams emerged from conference play over the same period with the best conference record.

While you make a good point about the champion as a flawed measure of SEC depth, I wonder if you may not be dismissing a valid point unfairly.

The writer, where that comparison originated, was addressing the oft-heard SEC criticism of the Big 10, typically voiced as "Big Two and Little Nine".

The writer presents a list of Big 10 conference champions to show that this characterization is inaccurate. After all, if 8 Big Ten teams have emerged from conference play as conference champions or co-champions over the 8-year period, there is a lot more parity than suggested by the "Big Two" characterization, even if Ohio State and TSUN are in the running almost every year.

IMO, notwithstanding that the comparison is flawed for the reason you mention, the number of teams winning the conference title is an informative longitudinal measure of depth across time. It shows that there is more to the Big Ten than the Big Two. One could also look at other objective measures, such as the historic computer power ratings, and arrive at a similar conclusion.

 

[muffler dragon]

Since there is no Big-10 championship game, there is no way of knowing how many different teams you'd have as champion, and to use that as proof of depth versus the SEC is less than useless, IMO.

Actually, this argument is a moot point since there is no way of saying whether a Championship game would have an impact or not. As Steve said, the point of the argument does refute the presumption made by many SEC honks.

 

[Gatorubet]

Actually, this argument is a moot point since there is no way of saying whether a Championship game would have an impact or not. As Steve said, the point of the argument does refute the presumption made by many SEC honks.

I agree that the info dispels the Big 2 and Little Brothers argument. Did not mean that it was useless in that regard, nor was I supporting that hypothesis. But as an indicia of "z many for us, and y many for you equals X (who has a deeper conference)", it fails due to the difference in structure.

The SEC has had four different MNCs in fifteen years, to the Big-10's two. But given the incredibly hard road to the game, in which luck plays a part, I'd say that those stats are also useless.

Again, to those who'd believe that the Big 10 is a two team conference, you could never prove a negative to their satisfaction.

 

[muffler dragon]

I agree that the info dispels the Big 2 and Little Brothers argument. Did not mean that it was useless in that regard, nor was I supporting that hypothesis. But as an indicia of "z many for us, and y many for you equals X (who has a deeper conference)", it fails due to the difference in structure.

Completely agree. If the blogger was promoting that point; then I missed it, and I apologize.

The SEC has had four different MNCs in fifteen years, to the Big-10's two. But given the incredibly hard road to the game, in which luck plays a part, I'd say that those stats are also useless.

Again, to those who'd believe that the Big 10 is a two team conference, you could never prove a negative to their satisfaction.

'Tis true.

 

[Gatorubet]

Completely agree. If the blogger was promoting that point; then I missed it, and I apologize.

Man, no apology needed. But his line:

"Since 99, the Big Ten has had 8 different teams at least share the conference title. The SEC has had 5 teams win the conference title over the same span.... Which conference is deeper now?"

led me to believe he was using that to prove greater depth...which is cool, except I think the two conferences are set up so differently that it is not a useful tool for that proposition.

 

[muffler dragon]

Man, no apology needed. But his line:

"Since 99, the Big Ten has had 8 different teams at least share the conference title. The SEC has had 5 teams win the conference title over the same span.... Which conference is deeper now?"

led me to believe he was using that to prove greater depth...which is cool, except I think the two conferences are set up so differently that it is not a useful tool for that proposition.

Ahhh... I can see where you got that. I did glance too quickly.

I agree with what you've said though.

 

[BamaBuckeye]

We have all heard the talk since last year about the SEC dominance and tsuns recent egg laying has certainly made it worse. I thought I'd throw some stuff out there so anyone can reference it during their next conversation with an SEC dominace believer.

Since the inception of the BCS system in 1998 B10 vs SEC head to head:

Overall: SEC 17 B10 16
SEC Home team: SEC 4 B10 O
B10 Home team: B10 3 SEC 2
Bowl Games: B10 13 SEC 11
# of winning Bowl seasons: B10 5 SEC 2 (2 ties)
Total combined scores of all Bowl games: 609-623
When B10 is higher ranked team: 6-6
When SEC is higher ranked team: B10 5 SEC 4
When both unranked or same rank: B10 2 SEC 1

So what myths are laid to rest here?
1) The SEC owns the B10. I guess that would depend on ones definition of "owns." The B10 has the edge in head to head Bowl competetiton during the BCS era. Top to bottom SEC strength, southern speed and ill feelings still harbord from the Civil War dont mean anything. Bowl games are best teams on best teams, head to head. The B10 leads 13-11. Period.

2) The B10 is overrated. Again, don't let the facts get in the way of a good opinion. When the B10 has the higher rated team in head to head Bowl competition the record stands at 6-6. When the SEC is the higher ranked team The B10 leads 5 games to 4. When both teams are unranked(or the same rank) the B10 leads 2-1.

3) UF's win over OSU shows how much better the SEC is. My only question here is if the B12 has permanent bragging rights over the SEC from Nebraska's 62-24 beating of a previously undefeated UF in the '95 Fiesta Bowl?

Dominance? I think not. Anyone willing to look deeper than a SportsCenter sound byte can see its even at best for the SEC.


Bowls Year by year(year is for season not actually played), rankings are from AP:

1998: 2-0 B10
#15 UM 45-#11 Ark 31
#22 PSU 26-(NR) UK 14

1999: 2-1 B10
#9 MSU 37-#10 UF 34
#8 UM 35-#5 AL 34
#21 UGA 28- #19 Purdue 25

2000: 1-1
#17 UM 31-#20 Auburn 28
(NR) USC 24-#19 OSU 7

2001: 3-0 SEC
#14 USC 31-#22 OSU 28
#12 LSU 47-#7 ILL 34
#8 UT 45-#17 UM 17

2002: 2-1 B10
#12 UM 38-#22 UF 30
(NR) Minn 29-#25 Ark 14
#19 Auburn 13-#10 PSU 9

2003: 2-1 SEC
#13 Iowa 37-#17 UF 17
#11 UGA 34-#10 Purdue 27
(NR)Auburn 28-(NR)Wisky 14

2004: 2-1 B10
(NR)Minn 20-(NR)AL 16
#11 Iowa 30-#12 LSU 25
#8 UGA 24-#16 Wisky 21

2005: 1-1
#21 Wisky 24-#7 Aub 10
#16 UF 31-#25 Iowa 24

2006: 2-1 B10
#12t Wisky 17-#12t Ark 14
(NR)PSU 20-#17 UT 10
#2 UF 41-#1 OSU 14

Thank you very much (to all who contributed) for the compiled information. I feel your pain of living in SEC country.

This information will help tremendously, again thank you.

Go Buckeyes!

 

[Gatorubet]

Thank you very much (to all who contributed) for the compiled information. I feel your pain of living in SEC country.

This information will help tremendously, again thank you.

Go Buckeyes!

Nah Bama - he doesn't just live in SEC country - he's lived this year in the heart of Gator Country, as Jacksonville is Gator homer central.

Face it - Jax was very bad in a former life.:tongue2:

 

[Jaxbuck]

Nah Bama - he doesn't just live in SEC country - he's livee this year in the heart of Gator Country, as Jacksonville is Gator homer central.

Face it - Jax was very bad in a former life.:tongue2:

I must not have been too bad...I've never had to set foot in that state up north. Other than the people and the heat I love Jacksonville.

 

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I like to fondle puppies

 

[Taosman]

I hear SC fans are very upset about us not being in the Rose Bowl.

 

[BamaBuckeye]

I hear SC fans are very upset about us not being in the Rose Bowl.

See you in September SC. :)

 

[buckeyes_rock]

Alright, well Herbie brought it up last night. He said if you put our 40 times next to those of the LSU players without names you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Well to that, Mark May said w/o a doubt you could, mainly because of Trindon Holliday. So, thought I would bring back the chart I made in an earlier SEC vs. Big10 thread, but just show LSU vs. Ohio State now that these are the only ones that really matter.

Anybody know Mark May's email or where I can find so I can send make him eat some crow? :)

Did you post this in the NC game thread? This is good stuff. Our LSU visitors might be interested. On a side note...funny to see Jai Eugene's name up there...the one time scUM recruit...boy could scUM have used his speed this year in the defensive backfield