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crazybuckfan40
Head Coach
MuckFich06;835685; said:
He is hitting less than .150 with runners in scoring position and less than that with 2 outs and runners in scoring position...I am not hating on Dunn, but that is just not getting it done in the clutch...
I honestly don't know what to do with this lineup anymore...The way that Jerry moves it around it is hard to get a read on where guys will succeed...
I believe I read yesterday that he had 24 different lineups in 34 games...:!
We honestly have a bunch of misfits that while you look up and down the lineup and feel that we should be pretty good, but the only way we seem to score is by hitting the ball out of the ball park...We can't manufacture runs, b/c we have not one guy on the team that can bunt well, we don't have a guy that can lay down a bunt for a basehit...We don't have a guy that we can hit and run with, we play base to base baseball and hope for a homerun, even with a guy in scoring position, b/c we have the worst RISP in the league...
Then factor in the bullpen and when we do put runs on the board we can't hold the lead...
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crazybuckfan40;835740; said:
I'm as big a Dunn supporter as your likely to find and I don't want him in the 3 hole. His best spots are eith#2 or #5 imo. His career numbers from the 2 hole are impressive.
This requires out of the box thinking however and I would be willing to bet at some point you'd see them put the bunt sign on the big man and I would hate to have to spend the rest of my life in prison for killing narron at that point.
Seriously though, I've been thinking about it a lot and Freel really needs to go back to super sub and playing 2-3 times a week max. You simply can't have him take AB's from hamilton, you can't have him in RF when JR's rolling and you shouldn't have him at 3B in place of EE very often at all. Besides the fact its his worst defensive position, a lot of this teams future rides on EE and we need him to play a lot to see what we've got with him over a full season.
That takes away the only leadoff hitter we have so why not have Dunn hit 2nd? The traditional lineup concept is out the window anyway.
Whatever the fuck they do, from last night on the better be in punt 2007 to get ready for 2008 mode. This front office better do some damage control because people are really starting to ask questions about WK.
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CookyPuss
Screw Blue
Jaxbuck;835760; said:
I don't have a problem with Dunn hitting second, I want his OBP in the top 3. CB40 is right that his average with RISP makes it difficult to put him in the traditional power spots in the order. But as you've both said, this team does not have the components for a traditional lineup. Sorry Jax, you aren't getting your wish with Freel. Jerry already plans to start him for Griffey and Dunn later this week. I think he plans on starting him 5 times a week, rotating through Dunn, Ham, Griff, EE, and Phillips. I think they need to stop dicking around with EE or trade him. Either make a commitment to this kid or let him go. They have no problem committing to some 39 year old stiff lefty to pitch the 8th who has gotten his brains beat in all year, but they can't seem to decide if EE is their everyday middle of the lineup guy.
First, Jerry needs to quit worrying so much about "splitting up the lefties." He didn't worry about splitting up the righties last night against the lefty pitcher. I agree that he needs to forget about the traditional leadoff and limit Freel's starts... unless you can trade Phillips for some bullpen help. (I know, it doesn't fit their defensive plan.) Since that won't happen, I kinda like this lineup:
Hamilton
Dunn
Phillips
Griffey
Edwin
Hatte
Gonzo
Ross
In all honesty, I think they need to move some of these parts. If Griff keeps swinging the bat, he may actually have some trade value. I'm just not sure how badly he wants a ring, but a contender can always use a bat like his. That would give them the ability to try to ink Dunn to a long term deal. If not, then I look at moving Dunn. Needs to fill: good young arms (always), a durable lead off hitter or RH bat with power, and the ultimate prize would be a stud catcher. What about Griff/Dunn to Atlanta for Jarrod Saltalamacchia and maybe an arm or two? I know, keep dreaming...
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MuckFich06;835831; said:
How about we trade Lohse at his all time high?
Pitching is the ultimate trading chip and the case could be made he is a young guy coming into his prime much like Arroyo did ( I don't believe that but I could put the numbers together and sell it). I know Boras and this being his FA year are a factor but to teams like NYY and Atlanta, its not such a detriment.
Our only other MLB chips are Freel, Hatte and Conine imo and you aren't going to get much there.
A decision has to be made on LTC or trade Dunn.
JR's 10/5 rights, contract and injury status just make it so tough to project any kind of value for him. He's like an Ebay item, its going to take that one certain person out there looking for just that piece.
All in all just load up on prospects a year or two away from being MLB ready and don't just limit it to pitchers, our system is thin in the middle infield as well as catcher.
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CookyPuss
Screw Blue
Jaxbuck;835852; said:
I'm on board. Signing Lohse to a LTR I think would be as big of a mistake as signing Uncle Milty. I'm afraid WK has a hardon for him though. I don't think they can wait until next year to make a decision on Dunn. I know all about Griffey and his 10/5 rights and that's why I haven't got a clue if he would even take a trade to anywhere. I think Atlanta would be a good spot for Dunn especially given their depth chart of Mike Diaz and Willie Harris in LF. Plus their farm system always seems to be stacked.
Edit: I'll add that I would trade anybody on this roster except Hamilton, Edwin (if they commit to him), Harang, and Bronson. I think Hamilton and Edwin can anchor your 3/4 spot in the lineup for years and you build around them. That's been the problem of Griffey being a centerpiece you can't count on and turning over the front office/management so much. You end up with a team of misfits.
As for return for Griff, I think moving his salary off the books would be enough. Of course, I'm assuming that Hamilton isn't a mirage and can keep clean.
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crazybuckfan40
Head Coach
Jaxbuck;835760; said:
Can't say I disagree with everything you said...I think that Hamilton is a run producer, but when you have Freel out of the lineup you don't have anyone that resembles a leadoff hitter...So I would put Hamilton there...It seems quite a bit that we have someone on when Freel comes up at the top of the lineup and he only has 3 rbi's to show for that...
So I am going with Hamilton at the top, Dunn in the 2 hole, Griff in the 3...
Then you split the lefties up by putting EE in the 4 hole, Philips or Gonzo in the 5 hole, then have Hatte in the 6 hole and the other of either Phillips or Gonzo in the 7 spot and Ross in the 8....
Forget the bullshit L-R-L deal...
Also one thing on the bullpen and I do believe that this makes sense, but I have been bitching about early in the season about the way Narron uses his bullpen and he brings a guy in to face 2 batters take him down and then bring in a guy to face 1 batter and so on, using about 4 or 5 bullpen pitchers a night...
Just like last night we saw that Sarloos was throwing good, why not leave him in...I mean no reliever is going to have his good stuff every night, so why not leave Sarloos in when you knew he had good stuff...
I would rather see 2 guys in stead of 4...You add to the chances of one guy not having his stuff and costing you the game on the night...Also when you run a guy out there ever single night his arm is obviously going to tire...
As far as trading guys, I would honestly try and unload Griffey or Dunn...As long as he gets something good in return...
While Dunn's homeruns are great and his ability to draw a walk, he is replaceable by an outfield that can really cover LF and has the ability to clutch hit and run the bases and put pressure on the defense...You could also make the same argument for trading Griffey...
We have a guy in Jay Bruce that while he is probably a year away he is as close to a can't miss as you can get...You also have Hopper and Freel that can cover the OF for the rest of this year and battle for a starting spot early next season until Bruce is ready...
I agree that you could also dump Lohse now that his value is high, but if they want to sign him up I also don't have a problem with that as I do believe that he can be a very productive starter, but we have guys waiting in the wings in the minors that will be up there for next year...Lohse is a servicable 3 or 4 man, and if a guy like Bailey can man the 3 spot in the rotation with ease, you could move him down...
A rotation of Harang, Arroyo, Bailey(if he pans out), Belisle, Lohse sounds very good, they all seem to be able to eat some innings, you don't have a guy like Milton that can barely get thru 5 innings, and stay away from using the bullpen as much...
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OSUBasketballJunkie
Never Forget 31-0
Cincy
Reds reach breaking point
Frustration has Weathers boiling over
BY JOHN FAY | [email protected]
After this bullpen blowup, closer David Weathers blew up a bit at the media.
The Reds lost to the Houston Astros 7-6 Tuesday night, thanks to Brad Salmon allowing a two-run homer in seventh inning and another run allowed in the ninth by Weathers.
"We know we're blowing games," Weathers said. "It's frustrating to all of us. You guys (in the media) act like it's more frustrating to you.
"You all don't put on the uniform. It hurts us personally."
Weathers apologized for snapping, but he knows the bullpen's performance has to change for the Reds to be successful.
"We've got to stop all the talk," Weathers said. "It's got to start tomorrow. If we go out there with a lead, somebody needs to get it done."
The Reds have lost six of their last seven games. They are five games under .500 at 14-19. They were not five games under all of last season.
Continued....
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crazybuckfan40
Head Coach
Well hopefully they take it upon themselves to improve...
Coffey did look like he was pissed off last night when he was pitching and he pitched quite well...
The only thing I can say to try and sugar coat it is...You are never as bad as when you struggle and you arent as good as when you have great times...Always somewhere in the middle and they started off pretty good and now are doing terrible, so if they could just find a commmon ground in the middle, it would be better than it is now...
Coffey did look like he was pissed off last night when he was pitching and he pitched quite well...
The only thing I can say to try and sugar coat it is...You are never as bad as when you struggle and you arent as good as when you have great times...Always somewhere in the middle and they started off pretty good and now are doing terrible, so if they could just find a commmon ground in the middle, it would be better than it is now...
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I love the idea of building around a good young nucleus like EE, JH, Arroyo and Harang but quite honestly there isn't one swinging dick on this team I wouldn't trade for the right price. I'm not saying you trade em all, I'm just saying I'd listen to anyone for anyone and not be afraid to pull the trigger regardless of who we sent out.
That said the production you get from JH, BP, EE(hopefully) for the cost makes them the "untouchables" to me. The production and contract status of Arroyo and Harang make them the second layer of "untouchables".
You must turn Hatte, Weathers, Conine and maybe Stanton, if he can turn it around, into prospects by the trade deadline imo. Add Freel and Nacho Libre to that list if you want to get real aggressive. Good bench players aren't a luxury we can afford if they can bring some return.
That said the production you get from JH, BP, EE(hopefully) for the cost makes them the "untouchables" to me. The production and contract status of Arroyo and Harang make them the second layer of "untouchables".
You must turn Hatte, Weathers, Conine and maybe Stanton, if he can turn it around, into prospects by the trade deadline imo. Add Freel and Nacho Libre to that list if you want to get real aggressive. Good bench players aren't a luxury we can afford if they can bring some return.
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CookyPuss
Screw Blue
I am going to give WK credit of so far not doing anything stupid with the current BP situation. He managed to get a potential closer in McBeth for an injured spare part outfielder. I don't see any point in making a drastic move with Majewski, Bray, and Burton all expected to be ready by the end of the month. Glad to see Burton had a quality inning at Louisville last night after getting a prison bitch type ass pounding in AA. Hopefully that was an anomoly or he was working on something.
I think as we've noted here that the bull pen is the current glaring problem, but fixing it won't fix this team. I was of the wait and see approach to start the year and now I'm fully in Jax camp of burn it down and build it back. I think the dumbest thing they could do is go out and trade prospects for a closer. Really, who he hell could they get anyways? Cordero? Please. I've seen names like Brad Lidge kicked around. Just what that BP needs, another head case.
I've been half expecting a "big" move the last couple of days, but there really isn't much they can do. They already have 5 guys who they need to get in there by the end of the year and figure out if they are going to be the future (Bray, Majew, Burton, Salmon, and McBeth). Salmon is already here and I like him so far. He needs to work on his command, but he has good stuff. Welsh had a great line after the Berkman homer, something to the effect of Salmon not facing anyone in the minors who could hit that pitch for an opp field homer. He'll learn. I doubt we see McBeth soon, because that means cutting someone loose and they are already going to have to DFA Santos when one of the others becomes available. (I think they only have a little of a week to decide on Burton).
Anyways, if they go out an get someone, it means one less roster spot to audition these guys. Marty said the other night that he thinks Cout will be out when Bray is ready, not that he deserves it. I think he's right. Stanton is probably here until they can (hopefully) deal him.
The only question I have is do you DFA Santos now and get a look at Majew or McBeth while you let Burton get a couple more appearances at AAA? I'd get Majew up if he's ready, no reason to start the arb clock on McBeth. I'm still not opposed to sending Coffey down for a couple of weeks and not allowing him to throw fastballs. Maybe he could learn to throw something else effectively that way.
I think as we've noted here that the bull pen is the current glaring problem, but fixing it won't fix this team. I was of the wait and see approach to start the year and now I'm fully in Jax camp of burn it down and build it back. I think the dumbest thing they could do is go out and trade prospects for a closer. Really, who he hell could they get anyways? Cordero? Please. I've seen names like Brad Lidge kicked around. Just what that BP needs, another head case.
I've been half expecting a "big" move the last couple of days, but there really isn't much they can do. They already have 5 guys who they need to get in there by the end of the year and figure out if they are going to be the future (Bray, Majew, Burton, Salmon, and McBeth). Salmon is already here and I like him so far. He needs to work on his command, but he has good stuff. Welsh had a great line after the Berkman homer, something to the effect of Salmon not facing anyone in the minors who could hit that pitch for an opp field homer. He'll learn. I doubt we see McBeth soon, because that means cutting someone loose and they are already going to have to DFA Santos when one of the others becomes available. (I think they only have a little of a week to decide on Burton).
Anyways, if they go out an get someone, it means one less roster spot to audition these guys. Marty said the other night that he thinks Cout will be out when Bray is ready, not that he deserves it. I think he's right. Stanton is probably here until they can (hopefully) deal him.
The only question I have is do you DFA Santos now and get a look at Majew or McBeth while you let Burton get a couple more appearances at AAA? I'd get Majew up if he's ready, no reason to start the arb clock on McBeth. I'm still not opposed to sending Coffey down for a couple of weeks and not allowing him to throw fastballs. Maybe he could learn to throw something else effectively that way.
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WK hasn't done anything stupid with the pen except for all the stupid shit he did to get to this point. 
I agree wholeheartedly that you simply don't want to/can't make the one big move that going to fix this team. We don't have anything left to pay the kind of price a legit, proven MLB closer would cost and truth be told that's the kind of "buy high" thing small market teams just can't do. Besdides that we need a complete backend to our pen, not just one guy. All we have is 8 front end types right now. There isn't a legit, trustworthy set up man in the bunch.
Santos question: DFA his ass the second someone comes off the DL. What the fuck do we have to lose except more face for WK for signing the putz in the first place?
I agree wholeheartedly that you simply don't want to/can't make the one big move that going to fix this team. We don't have anything left to pay the kind of price a legit, proven MLB closer would cost and truth be told that's the kind of "buy high" thing small market teams just can't do. Besdides that we need a complete backend to our pen, not just one guy. All we have is 8 front end types right now. There isn't a legit, trustworthy set up man in the bunch.
Santos question: DFA his ass the second someone comes off the DL. What the fuck do we have to lose except more face for WK for signing the putz in the first place?
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Uncle Milty sleeps with the fishes!!!!!
On the DL with "elbow strain", my guess is he never comes back. There was a lot of talk about this being the route they'd go if he looked bad last night.
Burton gets the call up. 5th starter TBD.
I'd say we are on Homer watch but I really hope not. This season is toast don't rush him.
On the DL with "elbow strain", my guess is he never comes back. There was a lot of talk about this being the route they'd go if he looked bad last night.
Burton gets the call up. 5th starter TBD.
I'd say we are on Homer watch but I really hope not. This season is toast don't rush him.
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