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- Thread starter OSUBasketballJunkie
- Start date
Way to go Josh. Set the table here boys.
2 on no out.
Its a perfect time for one of those "run producers".
2 on no out.
Its a perfect time for one of those "run producers".
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The bullpen mess is squarely still on WK's shoulders and he needs to start feeling some heat. The pen, The Trade, Narron...3 things I always remind myself of when I try to like WK.
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I'm surprised we were even in this game tonight considering the crap we put on the mound.
Nice ERA's:
Milton 4.85
Sarloos 4.38
Coffey 5.79 blech
Stanton 8.22
Weathers 2.53
Stormy is the only respectable ERA of the bunch. These numbers reflect after the game so Sarloos, Coffey and Weathers were all worse than that coming in.
Narron's favorite, Mike Stanton who was actually a little better ERA wise coming in, has given up 3 runs in 2 of his last 4 times out. Thats not acceptable from the bullpen, period. How long til Billy Bray is ready to go!:!
Even if Bray and Majick dont come in and mow guys down, for some reason I think I'll be able to handle it a little better than when the 40 year olds are doing it.
Oh well, lets just hope Griff continues to hit and Dunner catches fire so we can keep it respectable.
Nice ERA's:
Milton 4.85
Sarloos 4.38
Coffey 5.79 blech
Stanton 8.22
Weathers 2.53
Stormy is the only respectable ERA of the bunch. These numbers reflect after the game so Sarloos, Coffey and Weathers were all worse than that coming in.
Narron's favorite, Mike Stanton who was actually a little better ERA wise coming in, has given up 3 runs in 2 of his last 4 times out. Thats not acceptable from the bullpen, period. How long til Billy Bray is ready to go!:!
Even if Bray and Majick dont come in and mow guys down, for some reason I think I'll be able to handle it a little better than when the 40 year olds are doing it.
Oh well, lets just hope Griff continues to hit and Dunner catches fire so we can keep it respectable.
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Why would you want crap" on your team?
Why would "your team" be crap?
Why not get a team that isn't "crap"
The BUckeyes aren't "crap" root for them
Why would "your team" be crap?
Why not get a team that isn't "crap"
The BUckeyes aren't "crap" root for them
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Fungo Squiggly
Mortal enemy of all things Bucky
Yahoo Pickem Champ
Former Game Champion
'18 BPCFFB II Champ
'18 Keeper League Champ
jlb1705;832227; said:
You absolutely have to put Freel in motion there, Narron! Also, I would have liked to have seen Griffey take a couple pitches there and at least give Freel a chance to take second. (On the other hand, he did hit that ball quite sharply, just happened to be right to short. Tough break.)
It's nice to see Griff hitting the ball pretty well right now. Hopefully he can keep it up.
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CookyPuss
Screw Blue
Bucky Katt;832352; said:
Freel does not have a good stolen base ratio so far this year and I'm pretty sure Ausmus has a good gun. Also, they needed 2 runs at that point, so you don't want to get a runner picked off with Griffey up. I can't fault him for not running Freel. I can fault him for not having his highest OBP player (Dunn) in the top 3 so he doesn't get an AB in the 9th.
Best Buckeye, you must have some sand in your shorts this morning. Bitching about the "crap" bullpen has been the favorite pastime of Reds fans since the Nasty Boys broke up (save one glorious season of Graves/Williamson). I haven't been over to RedsZone yet, but I'm sure that board is in full meltdown over the pen.
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Fungo Squiggly
Mortal enemy of all things Bucky
Yahoo Pickem Champ
Former Game Champion
'18 BPCFFB II Champ
'18 Keeper League Champ
MuckFich06;832373; said:
Freel is over 75% for his career. If he's healthy, I'm not too concerned about this year's numbers. Ausmus's arm isn't what it used to be. He's at 27% this year and was at 22% last year.
If Griff was the tying run, I would be fine with Freel standing pat, but Hamilton on 3rd + Freel on 2nd = any hit ties the game. Even if Freel gets thrown out, Griff is still the tying run. I'd be willing to risk it in order to get the tying run in scoring position and to break up the DP.
Could just be that you have more faith in Griffey at that point than I do. :tongue2:
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crazybuckfan40
Head Coach
Just another stupidly managed game...
The pen once again is killing us...we can't win a game when they have to pitch more than 2 innings...
Also we havent won a single game yet this year when Milton has pitched, and when you have a starter that can make it past 5 innings and the pen we put behind him, well then we are fucked from the start...I don't even know why I tune into games when he starts...
Give me Livingston...He went 7.2 innings last nite giving up only 2 ER...I know it is AAA, but I do believe that he only had like 86 pitches so he was effecient...
The pen once again is killing us...we can't win a game when they have to pitch more than 2 innings...
Also we havent won a single game yet this year when Milton has pitched, and when you have a starter that can make it past 5 innings and the pen we put behind him, well then we are fucked from the start...I don't even know why I tune into games when he starts...
Give me Livingston...He went 7.2 innings last nite giving up only 2 ER...I know it is AAA, but I do believe that he only had like 86 pitches so he was effecient...
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crazybuckfan40;832454; said:
Agree with your frustration but the sad part is Milton has put us in a position to win every game he has started(save maybe one, iirc). Last night was squarely on Gonzo and Jr's lack of mental focus/hustle.
That type of mental shit I place on the manager. To be fair to numbnuts, I know that God himself couldn't manage this team to a WS. I do however expect a manager to maximize the talent he's got and get them to play hard, smart baseball. The Reds are a dumb, unfocused, lazy team.
As far as the pen goes, WK knew it was a critical weakness 18 months ago and hasn't fixed shit. I'm not upset with mediocre players being mediocre, I'm pissed at the guy who gave us these 8 stiffs.
A lot of younger guy smight not remember this but the last couple of years Coop was the HC, Andy Gieger started to feel some heat for keeping the dumb hick employed. To his credit he made a change and made a great one.
It's a loose analogy but I'm starting to get that overall vibe in Reds land. The honeymoon is over and people are starting to ask the question, "what has WK really done so far?"
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5/4/07 lineup
Hatteberg 1b
Phillips 2b
Griffey rf
Encarnacion 3b
Dunn lf
Gonzalez ss
Hamilton cf
Ross c
Belisle p
21 lineups in 29 games
I'm actually ok with this one if Freel isn't playing and he needs to be sitting a lot more. Hamilton should still be higher than gonzo but its a perfect L-R-L-R down to the pitcher.
Hatteberg 1b
Phillips 2b
Griffey rf
Encarnacion 3b
Dunn lf
Gonzalez ss
Hamilton cf
Ross c
Belisle p
21 lineups in 29 games
I'm actually ok with this one if Freel isn't playing and he needs to be sitting a lot more. Hamilton should still be higher than gonzo but its a perfect L-R-L-R down to the pitcher.
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crazybuckfan40
Head Coach
I am not ready to dog on WK yet...
IMO he has done some very good things for this organization and has us in place to contendnext yea and 09...
He locked up Arroyo and Harang...He can do what he wants with Lohse and Belisle in terms of what happens with prospects Livingston, Bailey, Dumarait, Elizardo, Cueto, Watson, Fisher...He also has prospects for the pen with McBeth, Salmon, and he has some young arms already up here and guys that are hurt right now...Guys like Bray and Majew...
Also he has tried to help the bullpen in the worst way, but we had Guardado come over here and get hurt, same with Majew...
He has maken moves and brought in some good hitting coaches and pitching coaches IMO...Much better than what we had with Chambliss and Gullett...
He stole Phillips for nothing...
He has went to more of a defensive oriented team, getting rid of Felo and signing Gonzalez...Also Ross, while he is really slumping this year, he had a nice year last year, and basically stole him...Catcher is IMO the hardest position in all of baseball to really get a guy that can hit and play defense, so I guess you take one or the other, and Ross can give the occasional pop...
He took a chance on Hamilton why no one else did and we see how that is turning out...
Even tho we all hate Narron and his stupid ass ways of managing, IMO there is a reason why he is still here, he did put up the most wins for a Reds team last year than what we have in the past couple years...He also has to deal with a piss poor bullpen, that can't continuously get guys out...He has had to deal with EE, Phillips, Ross really slumping early in the season, but we are still 1 game under .500. Keep in mind I am in no way saying I like Narron, but he has put up better records than most managers, but there is a lot of room for improvement, and that is why we all would like to see a new manager...At least he isnt Dave Miley...
So overall I am not ready to throw WK under the bus...It is hard to really put together a continuous winner in a small market enviroment, but I think he is on the right path, once he puts together a solid bullpen and gets a good manager...
IMO he has done some very good things for this organization and has us in place to contendnext yea and 09...
He locked up Arroyo and Harang...He can do what he wants with Lohse and Belisle in terms of what happens with prospects Livingston, Bailey, Dumarait, Elizardo, Cueto, Watson, Fisher...He also has prospects for the pen with McBeth, Salmon, and he has some young arms already up here and guys that are hurt right now...Guys like Bray and Majew...
Also he has tried to help the bullpen in the worst way, but we had Guardado come over here and get hurt, same with Majew...
He has maken moves and brought in some good hitting coaches and pitching coaches IMO...Much better than what we had with Chambliss and Gullett...
He stole Phillips for nothing...
He has went to more of a defensive oriented team, getting rid of Felo and signing Gonzalez...Also Ross, while he is really slumping this year, he had a nice year last year, and basically stole him...Catcher is IMO the hardest position in all of baseball to really get a guy that can hit and play defense, so I guess you take one or the other, and Ross can give the occasional pop...
He took a chance on Hamilton why no one else did and we see how that is turning out...
Even tho we all hate Narron and his stupid ass ways of managing, IMO there is a reason why he is still here, he did put up the most wins for a Reds team last year than what we have in the past couple years...He also has to deal with a piss poor bullpen, that can't continuously get guys out...He has had to deal with EE, Phillips, Ross really slumping early in the season, but we are still 1 game under .500. Keep in mind I am in no way saying I like Narron, but he has put up better records than most managers, but there is a lot of room for improvement, and that is why we all would like to see a new manager...At least he isnt Dave Miley...
So overall I am not ready to throw WK under the bus...It is hard to really put together a continuous winner in a small market enviroment, but I think he is on the right path, once he puts together a solid bullpen and gets a good manager...
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crazybuckfan40;833017; said:
or more concisely...dumpster dive till the kids arrive. Not the first GM to use that plan, the last one liked to wear leather pants.
I prefer my plans to rely a little less heavily on finger crossing.
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CookyPuss
Screw Blue
Bullpens blowing leads are as much a part of baseball as singing Take Me Out to the Ballgame in the middle of the 7th inning. In nearly every game when the Reds are tied or trailing after 5, I'm salivating for the other team to go to the pen. Very few teams are able to put together a Nasty Boys type "lights out" bullpen. About half the teams have bona fide closers and the other half run some stiff out there hoping he gets it done. Even many that are great for a time, burn out quickly. Every year two team make the World Series and the fans of the other 28 teams bitch about how their bullpen blew too many leads.
Here's a pretty good article about how the relative strength of the bullpen tends to have little impact over the course of the year (HardBallTimes). I think things have been more emphasized in Cincy because of "The Trade" and the fact that the Reds had 3 guys in the pen to start the year that were 39+ in age. The law of averages says the bullpen will hold far more leads than they blow over the year and other teams will blow as many leads to the Reds. In other words, its not time to panic yet.
What I think the Reds need to do first is settle the starting lineup so the hitting is maximize their productivity on that end to take some pressure off the pen. Second, they need to anoint someone other than Weathers as the closer. I'm hoping that kid they got for Deno is a possibility and I'd also like to see Salmon get a look after he gets his feet wet. I still think they need to can Hume. For whatever reason, he seems unable to coach the "mental game" to his pitchers. I haven't ever seen him turn around a "head case" but a few of them sure have developed/gotten worse on his watch.
I think you hold onto Stanton and Weathers until teams get desperate in the second half and maybe you can dump their salaries for prospects. However, Bray will be ready soon and they will have to make a decision about Burton. I know it might not be popular due to his ERA, but I think Santos is expendable, his WHIP is not that good and he has walked quite a few guys. I'm afraid he's a disaster waiting to happen. Saarloos is another guy with limited upside. A sinkerball pitcher that can't keep his sinkerball down isn't much help. Last I read Burton walked 2 guys and hit a batter in an inning, so my guess is he will be going back to Oaktown unless they can work him as a PTBNL. Either way, it seems he's not ready for "The Show."
If you can't trade for one, there's nobody ready in the minors, and Everyday Eddie will be lucky to pitch again, where do you get a closer? Personally, I don't like to look at ERA of relievers because for many reasons it's not an accurate stat. I mean, Cormier had a 0.00 ERA until his last appearance, yet everyone knew he was toast. You have all kinds of factors like inherited runners, time/score of game, and unearned runs. I prefer to look at game logs. Take two guys who allow 5 runs to score in 9 appearances, which would you rather have as a closer? Assume they average 1 inning per appearance. In 9 appearances Player A gives up 4 runs once and 1 run once and 0 in his other 7. Player B gives up 2 runs once, and 1 run 3 times, and 0 in the other 5. Right now the Reds have Player B (Weathers) as their closer. Player A (Coffey) is pitching in the 6th or 7th. Weathers is going to get you that 3 run save every time, but he's almost a coin flip in a 1 run game. Coffey will get you that 1 run save 8 out of 10. I want the guy back there who is going to get the "tough" save. The only question about Coffey is his mental side (which I have little confidence that Hume can help him through).
Bottom line: let Coffey try closing again, he'll blow up a few times but will get the job done far more times than not and it will help move Stanton and Weathers back to their more comfortable roles. I don't want to see either of them tasked to pitch an entire inning. There jobs should be to come in and get one or two guys out, same with Cout. Salmon may become the set up guy/closer in waiting... that would be cool. Saarloos and Santos can cover the 6th/7th or when Uncle Milty blows up and gets run after 4.
Here's a pretty good article about how the relative strength of the bullpen tends to have little impact over the course of the year (HardBallTimes). I think things have been more emphasized in Cincy because of "The Trade" and the fact that the Reds had 3 guys in the pen to start the year that were 39+ in age. The law of averages says the bullpen will hold far more leads than they blow over the year and other teams will blow as many leads to the Reds. In other words, its not time to panic yet.
What I think the Reds need to do first is settle the starting lineup so the hitting is maximize their productivity on that end to take some pressure off the pen. Second, they need to anoint someone other than Weathers as the closer. I'm hoping that kid they got for Deno is a possibility and I'd also like to see Salmon get a look after he gets his feet wet. I still think they need to can Hume. For whatever reason, he seems unable to coach the "mental game" to his pitchers. I haven't ever seen him turn around a "head case" but a few of them sure have developed/gotten worse on his watch.
I think you hold onto Stanton and Weathers until teams get desperate in the second half and maybe you can dump their salaries for prospects. However, Bray will be ready soon and they will have to make a decision about Burton. I know it might not be popular due to his ERA, but I think Santos is expendable, his WHIP is not that good and he has walked quite a few guys. I'm afraid he's a disaster waiting to happen. Saarloos is another guy with limited upside. A sinkerball pitcher that can't keep his sinkerball down isn't much help. Last I read Burton walked 2 guys and hit a batter in an inning, so my guess is he will be going back to Oaktown unless they can work him as a PTBNL. Either way, it seems he's not ready for "The Show."
If you can't trade for one, there's nobody ready in the minors, and Everyday Eddie will be lucky to pitch again, where do you get a closer? Personally, I don't like to look at ERA of relievers because for many reasons it's not an accurate stat. I mean, Cormier had a 0.00 ERA until his last appearance, yet everyone knew he was toast. You have all kinds of factors like inherited runners, time/score of game, and unearned runs. I prefer to look at game logs. Take two guys who allow 5 runs to score in 9 appearances, which would you rather have as a closer? Assume they average 1 inning per appearance. In 9 appearances Player A gives up 4 runs once and 1 run once and 0 in his other 7. Player B gives up 2 runs once, and 1 run 3 times, and 0 in the other 5. Right now the Reds have Player B (Weathers) as their closer. Player A (Coffey) is pitching in the 6th or 7th. Weathers is going to get you that 3 run save every time, but he's almost a coin flip in a 1 run game. Coffey will get you that 1 run save 8 out of 10. I want the guy back there who is going to get the "tough" save. The only question about Coffey is his mental side (which I have little confidence that Hume can help him through).
Bottom line: let Coffey try closing again, he'll blow up a few times but will get the job done far more times than not and it will help move Stanton and Weathers back to their more comfortable roles. I don't want to see either of them tasked to pitch an entire inning. There jobs should be to come in and get one or two guys out, same with Cout. Salmon may become the set up guy/closer in waiting... that would be cool. Saarloos and Santos can cover the 6th/7th or when Uncle Milty blows up and gets run after 4.
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