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OL Justin Boren (Official Thread)

Stunning. The Ohio State fans aren't buying this.

Unwillingness to work does not get a Freshman a starting job on the OL at any program.

Prior to the Boren issue blowing up there was a report in a UM rag stating that Boren had embraced the new conditioning program and was emerging as a leader.

As UM fans were waiting to see if the rumors were true there were posts on UM boards stating he was doing well and may have been the fastest OL on the team.

Both OSU and UM fans are ascribing motives after the fact to a decision they know little about.

The argument for my position is outlined above.

The argument for the UM position seems to be "RR works people hard, therefore the only motive for a kid leaving is that he does not like hard work."

It also follows from the UM position that Boren concocted his arguments about RR destroying values that he (Justin) ascribed to just to cover for his own laziness. This implies a lack of character in Boren. Where is the groundwork for that reach?
 
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HailToMichigan;1126822; said:
First off, I don't think you have it right that we're rationalizing selling our soul. It's that we (well, I) don't believe we've sold our soul in the first place. You think so because you think RR is a scumbag. I don't think he's a scumbag.

Second, even if someone like Miles, an old Michigan man, had been hired, there would still have been a huge culture change. Miles may have graduated from Michigan but he has spent nearly two decades outside the program. He would not have come in and maintained the status quo. Well, more so than RR has, but Miles is a head coach in his own right with his own assistants and his own philosophies that have been honed in places outside U-M, and I doubt he would have felt substantially more loyalty to the assistants in place, or the procedures in place, than RR did. And that was the choice least likely to make waves in the program. (Outside of DeBord, that is, whose hire would have brought out the pitchforks and torches en masse.) Mike Boren's words were not, "Had I known there would be a change in philosophy (or attitude, or values, or approach, or....) I would not have let my son go to Michigan." He said "change in coaches." I believe Boren would have found things not particularly to his liking from any coach not named Lloyd Carr. I don't see Boren's departure as any kind of indictment on RR's character, I see a player who was not happy that Carr left, decided to give the new coach a shot but didn't like what he saw, and got out when he was no longer happy, with a little nudging from Pops.

Pure bullshit.

I believe that if Miles had gone to scUM, Boren would still be there. You are painting the Boren's as only being loyal to Carr, whilst forgetting that if it weren't for a visit from Bo, Boren may have ended up in scarlet and gray from the get go.

Maybe the Boren's like to play for people who exhibit class, have good character, bring a family feel to the the program, may actually care about them as an individual.

I see Boren's departure as a strong indictment on DickWad's character.

And wasn't there a recruit this past year, that after visiting scUM, his mother was not impressed by DickWad, had reservations about DickWad?

The snake oil salesman in the wizard's hat can fool many folks, but there are some that see through the charade and want no part of it.

Amazingly, if OSU ever, ever, has a player....a legacy player to boot!... leave in a similar situation as this one (and I mean with all of the other baggage that has come with the hiring), as an alum who is damned proud of my alma mater, I would be very, very concerned about right now. I sure as hell wouldn't be sticking my head in the sand, as many in skunkbear land seem to be doing.
 
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buckiprof;1127081; said:
Pure bullshit.
Exactly. It was no secret that Carr was on the back nine of his career when Boren signed. I'm sure the assumption was that there wouldn't be a complete overhaul of the program during his time there, which, given um's history doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Perhaps, just perhaps, he went to um with intentions of following so many other um OL into the NFL and he see's that this is not something that DickRod does particularly well. Perhaps, just perhaps, DickRod is the grade-a asshole he is rumored to be and it is eroding the "family atmosphere" that he loved about being in aa. This dressing-down of Boren's character is just laughable considering how much they denegrated wvu fans for slamming their coach after he suddenly bailed on them in preperations for a BCS game. Again, hypocracy at it's finest.
 
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buckiprof;1127081; said:
...Amazingly, if OSU ever, ever, has a player....a legacy player to boot!... leave in a similar situation as this one (and I mean with all of the other baggage that has come with the hiring), as an alum who is damned proud of my alma mater, I would be very, very concerned about right now. I sure as hell wouldn't be sticking my head in the sand, as many in skunkbear land seem to be doing.

+1
 
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buckiprof;1127081; said:
Pure bullshit.

I believe that if Miles had gone to scUM, Boren would still be there. You are painting the Boren's as only being loyal to Carr, whilst forgetting that if it weren't for a visit from Bo, Boren may have ended up in scarlet and gray from the get go.

Maybe the Boren's like to play for people who exhibit class, have good character, bring a family feel to the the program, may actually care about them as an individual.

I see Boren's departure as a strong indictment on DickWad's character.

And wasn't there a recruit this past year, that after visiting scUM, his mother was not impressed by DickWad, had reservations about DickWad?

The snake oil salesman in the wizard's hat can fool many folks, but there are some that see through the charade and want no part of it.

Amazingly, if OSU ever, ever, has a player....a legacy player to boot!... leave in a similar situation as this one (and I mean with all of the other baggage that has come with the hiring), as an alum who is damned proud of my alma mater, I would be very, very concerned about right now. I sure as hell wouldn't be sticking my head in the sand, as many in skunkbear land seem to be doing.
You imply that Boren being a legacy means a stronger bond between player and program than normal. Ordinarily, you'd think so. This legacy already almost went to OSU, as you were kind enough to point out. It doesn't work both ways here. There wasn't any kind of special legacy bond during the recruiting process when Justin was thisclose to being a Buckeye and there isn't now. As you said, if it weren't for a visit from Bo, he might already be. So where was that legacy pull when it was just Lloyd Carr recruiting him?
 
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The legacy pull is that the legacy was enough to get him to commit to playing his college football at UM. That's a huge life decision for a kid and obviously all things were at least equal in his mind and Ohio State just wasn't Michigan.

Ohio State wasn't the team he grew up rooting for. Ohio State wasn't the team his dad played for.

Ohio State wasn't the team he'd grown up listening to old "war" stories about.

Ohio State wasn't the team in his heart. UM was.

What did that coaching staff do or say to make this kid want to leave all of that behind????

As has been stated time and time again...do you really think it was too much running that swayed this kid to leave? Do UM fans actually believe that?
 
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Much of BOren-gate is tied up in the desperation of UM fans to distance themselves from everything Carr, including shutting down the "country club" that too many enjoyed (ie Gabe Watson). Thus when drill sergeant RR arrives, it's a glorious renaissance, regardless of the tactics used to bring about such wholesale change.

It's been reported that Boren was not fond of the running, which is being extrapolated by a LARGE majority of UM fans to mean he's a softie from the ole regime who is throwing a hissy fit (over 'values) now that RR is riding him to work hard.

1) Find me an OL who likes running. Barton & Boone have plenty of comments about hating running. One of OSU's '08 recruits from highly favored Glenville was forced to lose 70 pounds before he got an offer... and he achieved both.

2) It's no secret how brutal RR & staff are with their verbal abuse & boot camp approach to coaching. But since the last staff was too soft on kids, this is brushed off as 'welcome change', thus surely Boren is complaining over accountability & hard work... and not the painful to watch approach the new staff uses on their players.

3) Where was all the talk about Boren being soft before this year? He's been here two years, those not working to achieve their potential are discussed quite heavily on message boards, both UM and other b10 schools. Guys like Mitchell who quit and came back without punishment. Or players like Watson & others were able to get away with lax effort. This wasn't something that got discovered by the NFL, it was well known in big ten circles. So how did he go from a hard-nosed, very talented OL who both fanbases coveted to such an undesirable in so little time?

There were plenty of players who were not properly conditioned, and got away with too much under the old staff and S&C program. But Boren was hardly one of the softies... something readily and frequently acknowledged by UM fans. When RR & Barwis showed up he was excited about the direction of the program... and he was being touted as captain material. Yet over the next two months a falling out with the coaching staff somehow morphed him into a lazy, soft, sensitive shell of his former self, who was known for his tenacity.

Absurd.

If he's so soft and wants things handed to him on a platter like so many are trying to spin in wolverine land, then why is he going to OSU? They are an elite S&C program (in prowess and difficulty) and are going to be stacked with OL talent for years to come. Yet another thing that simply doesn't add up.

If you take issue with the existence of negative comments upon departure, that's one thing. But to try and repaint him as a completely different person and player just months after being an elite asset to the team is ridiculous.
And wasn't there a recruit this past year, that after visiting scUM, his mother was not impressed by DickWad, had reservations about DickWad?
Cameron Saddler.
There wasn't any kind of special legacy bond during the recruiting process when Justin was thisclose to being a Buckeye and there isn't now. As you said, if it weren't for a visit from Bo, he might already be.
Sorry, those sentences don't work together. If there was no legacy bond then how do you explain the visit? UM slowplayed Boren and is much further from home, two huge reasons OSU was able to come close to landing a kid raised to be a wolverine.
 
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ysubuck;1127133; said:
Do UM fans actually believe that?

Of course they do. Then, everything fits into a nice little package of bullshit. The S&C program under Carr was so pathetic, that the almighty Michigan actually lost to Ohio State! Now, when they hire a sleazebag coach, and a great kid and team leader by all previous reports...not to mention a legacy, up and leaves the program, it's not because the new S&C program is so rough, it's that it was so pathetic under Carr, guys that have been in the program for two seasons can't actually run anymore, thus, they lose to Ohio State. See how I did that?
 
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actually boren left because he couldn't take the coaches pushing him. Not because rich rod is a sleam bag. The old coaches gave him a easy legacy ride and the rest of the o line and thats not the case with the new coaches they get after them and if you mess up they don't care who u are ...today stonum started over mathews because mathews has been slacking. They don't pick on no 1 its boren who couldn't take it. He used the family issue as an out.
 
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actually boren left because he couldn't take the coaches pushing him. Not because rich rod is a sleam bag.
The old coaches gave him a easy legacy ride and the rest of the o line and thats not the case with the new coaches they get after them and if you mess up they don't care who u are
Right, so he's so soft and can't handle being pushed that he's going to go to OSU, where he loses his scholarship, has to sit out a year, will be pushed just as hard physically, and be forced to earn a spot against three times as much OL talent as resides in Ann Arbor?

Yeah, that sounds like the ticket for a kid who doesn't want to be pushed :roll1:
They don't pick on no 1 its boren who couldn't take it.
Actually, the best players are targeted with the most yelling and pressure. It's their way of pushing kids.
 
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Mrknowitall;1127138; said:
actually boren left because he couldn't take the coaches pushing him. Not because rich rod is a sleam bag. The old coaches gave him a easy legacy ride and the rest of the o line and thats not the case with the new coaches they get after them and if you mess up they don't care who u are ...today stonum started over mathews because mathews has been slacking. They don't pick on no 1 its boren who couldn't take it. He used the family issue as an out.
Did somebody hit 'repeat' on the CD player? And what exactly is a "sleam bag"? You're a little late to the party Mrknowitall, we've already heard this verse and it just don't add up.
 
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jwinslow;1127140; said:
Right, so he's so soft and can't handle being pushed that he's going to go to OSU, where he loses his scholarship, has to sit out a year, will be pushed just as hard physically, and be forced to earn a spot against three times as much OL talent as resides in Ann Arbor?
Nobody pushes harder than Barwis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!1!
 
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Mrknowitall;1127138; said:
actually boren left because he couldn't take the coaches pushing him. Not because rich rod is a sleam bag. The old coaches gave him a easy legacy ride and the rest of the o line and thats not the case with the new coaches they get after them and if you mess up they don't care who u are ...today stonum started over mathews because mathews has been slacking. They don't pick on no 1 its boren who couldn't take it. He used the family issue as an out.

Is this the Michigan company line now on this issue? That Boren is a pussy?

It would be funny if it weren't so damned sad, considering that not one of you could have gone through what Boren went through to earn the starting job at Michigan over the past 2 seasons. Pussy? No, look in the mirror.
 
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