Official Cleveland Browns Draft Thread

[Bleed S & G]

just have faith Savage and the coaches made a good move

I know you hate Quinn because you're trying to make the argument that guys like Drew Stanton and John David Booty are better prospects than him

Why would I have faith in that!? Romeo isn't the best coach in the world thus far from what i've seen and i believe the ravens duped savage.

in terms of prospects.. argue that Troy Smith was not a better prospect than Brady Quinn? We'll see on sundays in a few years but i'm not looking forward to playing Troy twice a year.. fact remains that Brady has alot to prove and he's not Gods gift to QBs. Hopefully he'll play like he does have something to prove.

 

[23Skidoo]

You hear what dungy said about grabbing so many buckeye? It was to the effect of they are winners, good attitudes, good work ethic.. the kind of guys i want to bring into the locker room. we bring in winslow, braylon, and wright? all attitude problems.. hope they get it together braylon said this will be his year, winslows attitude hasn't been bad since he arrived, and gotta give wright a chance

Exactly.. the kids coming out of Ohio State the past 2 years, at least, have been remarkably upstanding, hard-working... everything you'd want in your locker room and they win to boot. The Browns have so many needs and depth issues I don't see how or why they continue to act oblivious.

Winslow has seemd a lot more mature to me over this past year. I'm getting the impression that he's starting to come around. BUT -- he's also still a bust IMO.
Braylon is ... well ... he only makes the ttun thing worse for himself. It's like he flaunts it just to be an ass, and then drops TD passes against our hated rival. His attitude only seems to have become worse, and it seems like the management only lets him get away with it by making excuses for him at every turn. I can't stand this kid and it's not just ttun.
Wright... well, there weren't many options at CB in this draft and he was a good value there. I'd be much happier with it if we didn't already have some attitude problems though. I'm kinda torn here, but I'm willing to wait and see.

 

[23Skidoo]

Don't put words in my mouth. You're the one overreacting. You think this pick puts the entire future of the franchise at risk? What future? What did we have to lose by making this pick? You act as though Savage is putting the entire weight of the Browns organization on the shoulders of Quinn. If he doesn't succeed, well then that's just the way it works. We woouldn't be the first high draft pick from the Browns to fail and he certainly wouldn't be the last.

You can get over this drama queen act of yours. I never said Quinn was the best quarterback in this draft and next. I said if we were going to take a QB this year, I'd take Quinn, and if we were going to take one either year, Brohm was the only one from next year who I think would be better than Quinn. Don't twist what I say to fit your argument.

You need to get over your hate of Quinn and just have faith Savage and the coaches made a good move. You're saying your not going to judge him yet and give him a chance, but that doesn't appear to be the case. You've pretty much already conceded the future of the franchise it seems.

Just give it a freaking rest.

I know you hate Quinn because you're trying to make the argument that guys like Drew Stanton and John David Booty are better prospects than him. If you're going to criticize the pick, do it honestly and admit you hate the pick because you hate Quinn.

We gave up what should be 2 for-sure starters for Quinn. Maybe even a future badass like McFadden. The franchise IS on Quinn's shoulders now, like it or not. The rest of team will continue to suffer from overpaid FAs and a lack of depth because of this trade. For this to work, Quinn will have to be on top of his game.
I've made no secret that I'm not a Quinn-believer. I say believer, because there is nothing he's done on the field to show me he's a sure-fire allpro to be. I've posted several arguments using points and reasons for why guys like Stanton have just as much potential -- and I've yet to see you counter it. You use this "hate Quinn" thing as a scapegoat, which is funny because you're trying to paint me as scapegoating out.
And for the millionth time, we overpaid... no way you should ever give up that much for a 22nd overall pick. And I laugh at anyone who says we got 2 top-5 picks in this draft. Anyone who thinks that is living in their own alternate reality where they've convinced themselves that guys like Kiper and Mayock know more about the NFL than droves of scouts on the 21 NFL teams that apparantly didn't care to draft him.

 

[23Skidoo]

Why would I have faith in that!? Romeo isn't the best coach in the world thus far from what i've seen and i believe the ravens duped savage.

in terms of prospects.. argue that Troy Smith was not a better prospect than Brady Quinn? We'll see on sundays in a few years but i'm not looking forward to playing Troy twice a year.. fact remains that Brady has alot to prove and he's not Gods gift to QBs. Hopefully he'll play like he does have something to prove.

Speaking of which, Savage hasn't exactly proven to be this brilliant GM everyone wants to think he is. Braylon, Winslow ... coupled with a conspicuous lack of contributions from late-round picks doesn't leave me with a ton of confidence in our coach or GM.

 

[Napoleonbuck]

We gave up what should be 2 for-sure starters for Quinn. Maybe even a future badass like McFadden. The franchise IS on Quinn's shoulders now, like it or not. The rest of team will continue to suffer from overpaid FAs and a lack of depth because of this trade. For this to work, Quinn will have to be on top of his game.
I've made no secret that I'm not a Quinn-believer. I say believer, because there is nothing he's done on the field to show me he's a sure-fire allpro to be. I've posted several arguments using points and reasons for why guys like Stanton have just as much potential -- and I've yet to see you counter it. You use this "hate Quinn" thing as a scapegoat, which is funny because you're trying to paint me as scapegoating out.
And for the millionth time, we overpaid... no way you should ever give up that much for a 22nd overall pick. And I laugh at anyone who says we got 2 top-5 picks in this draft. Anyone who thinks that is living in their own alternate reality where they've convinced themselves that guys like Kiper and Mayock know more about the NFL than droves of scouts on the 21 NFL teams that apparantly didn't care to draft him.

And neither of those "for sure" starters would've been a QB(unless you're going to make the case that Stanton or Beck should be the future of the Browns). QB play is incredibly important in the NFL. If you have a chance to upgrade your QB, you almost always take it.

Do you care to explain how giving up ONE second round draft pick is going to create depth problems? I don't follow your logic at all with this.

We did get two top ten picks. Obviously Quinn wasn't a top 5 or three pick, but to say he wasn't top ten, or that Drew Stanton is just as talented just makes you look like a complete fool.

The argument that 21 other teams didn't draft him is incredibly dumb. First of all, there were only a few teams in the draft that needed QBs. Why would a team that has a solid QB or already used a high draft pick on a QB spend another one on a QB? Quinn haters like yourself need to stop using this argument because it makes zero sense.

 

[Napoleonbuck]

Why would I have faith in that!? Romeo isn't the best coach in the world thus far from what i've seen and i believe the ravens duped savage.

in terms of prospects.. argue that Troy Smith was not a better prospect than Brady Quinn? We'll see on sundays in a few years but i'm not looking forward to playing Troy twice a year.. fact remains that Brady has alot to prove and he's not Gods gift to QBs. Hopefully he'll play like he does have something to prove.

Troy Smith wasn't a better prospect than Quinn. Will Quinn be the better NFL QB? I have no clue, but I tend to think first round QBs have higher success rates than 5th round QBs.

What rookie Qbs don't have a lot to prove? Every QB has to prove they're not a bust. Saying that means nothing. The fact of the matter is Quinn was easily the second best QB in this draft, arguably the best, and the Browns made a proactive moce to get him rather than hoping Fry works out or that they can luck into a QB just as good or better in next years draft.

Edit: I'll ask this plainly. Can either of you find a non-biased columnist or NFL expert that thinks this was a horrible trade or that the Browns had a bad draft?

 

[23Skidoo]

And neither of those "for sure" starters would've been a QB(unless you're going to make the case that Stanton or Beck should be the future of the Browns). QB play is incredibly important in the NFL. If you have a chance to upgrade your QB, you almost always take it.

Do you care to explain how giving up ONE second round draft pick is going to create depth problems? I don't follow your logic at all with this.

1 very high 2nd, 1 at least top-half 1st for a PROSPECTIVE QB. He has potential, that is it. And there was no guarantee that we'd go after a QB next year. All you need is a smart QB that won't lose the game for you... Frye could likely fill that job.

We did get two top ten picks. Obviously Quinn wasn't a top 5 or three pick, but to say he wasn't top ten, or that Drew Stanton is just as talented just makes you look like a complete fool.

Yawn. I see it's beyond your ability to actually use any point or reason for why Quinn is heads and shoulders above Drew Stanton. All you can do is repeat media nonsense like a broken record.

The argument that 21 other teams didn't draft him is incredibly dumb. First of all, there were only a few teams in the draft that needed QBs. Why would a team that has a solid QB or already used a high draft pick on a QB spend another one on a QB? Quinn haters like yourself need to stop using this argument because it makes zero sense.

If he was truly a top-5 esque pick, a team in the 11+ range would have drafted him regardless. I could see how you could make a top-10 argument -- personally, I'd say top-15. Theres no doubt he got drafted lower than his perceived draft worth and we're squabbling over numbers. But even if you consider him top-10 or top-15... Dallas still took Savage to the bank. And Ozzie is probably laughing his ass off too after getting a very good prospect in the late 5th.
I'm not a hater, I just don't have a mancrush on him and am disappointed to see Savage bow down to get the media attention rather than making smart decisions under pressure. He'd be irresponsible to not try and move up, but I think he also got too obsessed with moving up and got hoodwinked on the way there.



Oh -- and Miami was hardly the only team there that could take a QB. To suggest that, only makes you look ignorant and willing to find any reason to justify a bad trade becaue of your mancrush.

 

[Big Papa]

Speaking of which, Savage hasn't exactly proven to be this brilliant GM everyone wants to think he is. Braylon, Winslow ... coupled with a conspicuous lack of contributions from late-round picks doesn't leave me with a ton of confidence in our coach or GM.

Jesus you are lost, #1 Savage was not the GM when they drafted Winslow. Not that I think he was a bad pick, I think he is probably one of the most talented players the Browns have, but that was still the Butch era, so that is wrong. #2 if you look at the 2005 draft (Savage's first) who would you rather the Browns have taken? Seeing that they were still committed to Lee Suggs/William Green at RB and had just traded for Droughns and at that time and needed WR/overall talent help? Here is a link to that draft for your reference: 2005 Draft Don't say Shawne Merriman either, because if the Browns would have taken him that high the fans would have went nuts. No one knew he would be this good. I am no big Braylon fan, but that draft sucked as far as talent and depth of talent.

 

[Big Papa]

Edit: I'll ask this plainly. Can either of you find a non-biased columnist or NFL expert that thinks this was a horrible trade or that the Browns had a bad draft?

Quite the contrary:

From SI.COM:

Top 10 STEALS OF THE DRAFT

 

[23Skidoo]

Troy Smith wasn't a better prospect than Quinn. Will Quinn be the better NFL QB? I have no clue, but I tend to think first round QBs have higher success rates than 5th round QBs.

What rookie Qbs don't have a lot to prove? Every QB has to prove they're not a bust. Saying that means nothing. The fact of the matter is Quinn was easily the second best QB in this draft, arguably the best, and the Browns made a proactive moce to get him rather than hoping Fry works out or that they can luck into a QB just as good or better in next years draft.

Edit: I'll ask this plainly. Can either of you find a non-biased columnist or NFL expert that thinks this was a horrible trade or that the Browns had a bad draft?

So your whole argument on why Troy isn't as good of a prospect is entirely predicated on the round he's picked in? Also, as per NFLN during draft coverage, Savage did some kind of a study over the past 40 years or so that looked at 60 QBs -- all the 1st or 2nd QB taken in their drafts and in the 1st round. They only have a 40% success rate, where success was essentially mediocre.
Furthermore, there's a number of very good late-round QBs in the NFL. From this kind of info, I don't think its unreasonable to assume one could spend 1st and 2nd picks on more guaranteed quality players and positions and consistently draft QBs later on to find that one that fits your system.

Now... here comes the shocker... I actually think that (all things being equal) BQ has better potential in the NFL than Troy. But Troy at the Ravens also scares the shit out of me. He will likely have something to prove if/when he plays us... and he's got the it factor to make it happen. Not to mention, the staff at Baltimore is top-notch.
I honestly wouldn't surprised to see TS v. BQ battles much like Elway v. Kosar in the next 5 years... and sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if the it factor consistently beat us again.

 

[Big Papa]

Winslow has seemd a lot more mature to me over this past year. I'm getting the impression that he's starting to come around. BUT -- he's also still a bust IMO.

You must be kidding. A bust? He has played one full season and led the team in catches. I hardly call this line for 2006 a bust.

89 Receptions
875 yards
9.8 ypc
3 td's

 

[23Skidoo]

Jesus you are lost, #1 Savage was not the GM when they drafted Winslow. Not that I think he was a bad pick, I think he is probably one of the most talented players the Browns have, but that was still the Butch era, so that is wrong. #2 if you look at the 2005 draft (Savage's first) who would you rather the Browns have taken? Seeing that they were still committed to Lee Suggs/William Green at RB and had just traded for Droughns and at that time and needed WR/overall talent help? Here is a link to that draft for your reference: 2005 Draft Don't say Shawne Merriman either, because if the Browns would have taken him that high the fans would have went nuts. No one knew he would be this good. I am no big Braylon fan, but that draft sucked as far as talent and depth of talent.

Got me on Butch... wasn't paying attention.
And I don't need to look. I would've rather had Benson. He hasn't done much yet, but Droughns was a stopgap at best and I don't know what they saw in Suggs at the time. My preferred choice is certainly criticizable... but whatever.

 

[Napoleonbuck]

1 very high 2nd, 1 at least top-half 1st for a PROSPECTIVE QB. He has potential, that is it. And there was no guarantee that we'd go after a QB next year. All you need is a smart QB that won't lose the game for you... Frye could likely fill that job.

If you're going to be successful in the NFL, you don't hope your QB doesn't make mistakes. You can maybe do that if your defense is lights out, but the Browns don't have that luxury. The Browns need a QB that can make plays. Fry isn't the guy, and there is no reason to think Quinn can't be that guy.

Yawn. I see it's beyond your ability to actually use any point or reason for why Quinn is heads and shoulders above Drew Stanton. All you can do is repeat media nonsense like a broken record.

And what amazing reasons have you given to show Stanton IS as good as Quinn? Was Stanton thought to be that good by anyone involved with NFL teams, or is it just your opinion?

If he was truly a top-5 esque pick, a team in the 11+ range would have drafted him regardless. I could see how you could make a top-10 argument -- personally, I'd say top-15. Theres no doubt he got drafted lower than his perceived draft worth and we're squabbling over numbers. But even if you consider him top-10 or top-15... Dallas still took Savage to the bank. And Ozzie is probably laughing his ass off too after getting a very good prospect in the late 5th.

Again twisting words. No one is saying top five, so you can drop it.

What team in the eleven range would have taken Quinn. Texans? Not with the deal they made for Schaubb. San Francisco? Not with first overall pick Smith still there. Buffalo? JP Losman is their future QB. St. Louis? Not with Bulger firmly entrenched as the starter. Jets? They still have Pennington. Pittsburgh still has Roethlisberger, Green Bay has Favre and Rogers, Denver has Cutler, Cincinnati has Palmer, Tennessee has Young, Giants have Manning, Jacksonville has Leftwich. The only teams before Kansas City that could have used a QB were Miami(but they're banking on Green being healthy I guess if they make the trade), Minnesota(they're banking on their second round pick last year being their future), and Oakland(they picked Russel obviously).

Tell me, what teams in the first round in that area woud've picked a QB this year?

I'm not a hater, I just don't have a mancrush on him and am disappointed to see Savage bow down to get the media attention rather than making smart decisions under pressure. He'd be irresponsible to not try and move up, but I think he also got too obsessed with moving up and got hoodwinked on the way there.

Where the hell have I had a mancrush on Quinn? Please show me the posts. Who in this thread that's looked at this reasonably has a "mancrush" on Quinn? No one is saying he's can't miss, but you're already preparing to dismiss him and call him a failure.

Oh -- and Miami was hardly the only team there that could take a QB. To suggest that, only makes you look ignorant and willing to find any reason to justify a bad trade becaue of your mancrush.

Give me the list then.

 

[23Skidoo]

You must be kidding. A bust? He has played one full season and led the team in catches. I hardly call this line for 2006 a bust.

89 Receptions
875 yards
9.8 ypc
3 td's

How many years has Winslow been on the paycheck getting paid top-10 money? And one season? Even if you're not going to look at it from a business perspective, that's at least a huge waste of capspace. And it's not like he's been injured from playing... he hurt himself being an idiot on his own time.
As for his numbers, they're decent. But considering he's worthless as a blocker, I expect to see some Shannon Sharpe type numbers.

 

[Napoleonbuck]

So your whole argument on why Troy isn't as good of a prospect is entirely predicated on the round he's picked in? Also, as per NFLN during draft coverage, Savage did some kind of a study over the past 40 years or so that looked at 60 QBs -- all the 1st or 2nd QB taken in their drafts and in the 1st round. They only have a 40% success rate, where success was essentially mediocre.
Furthermore, there's a number of very good late-round QBs in the NFL. From this kind of info, I don't think its unreasonable to assume one could spend 1st and 2nd picks on more guaranteed quality players and positions and consistently draft QBs later on to find that one that fits your system.

So why is Quinn just as good a prospect? You used the argument that 21 teams know more than I do about passing on Quinn. What does that say about Troy then?

Now... here comes the shocker... I actually think that (all things being equal) BQ has better potential in the NFL than Troy. But Troy at the Ravens also scares the shit out of me. He will likely have something to prove if/when he plays us... and he's got the it factor to make it happen. Not to mention, the staff at Baltimore is top-notch.
I honestly wouldn't surprised to see TS v. BQ battles much like Elway v. Kosar in the next 5 years... and sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if the it factor consistently beat us again.

What would he have to prove against the Browns? It isn't like he was ever in consideration for being a first day pick by the Browns(aside from in the minds of tOSU fans). I'm sure if Quinn didn't fall that far that we would've seriously considered him in th fourth/fifth round.

I think you're reaching with this point.