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Notre Dame (football only discussion)

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http://www.uhnd.com/bb/forum/index.php?action=display&forumid=6&msgid=41131

A ND "fan" posts another fan's response (or something like that, hard to follow all this brainpower) on the Tressel quote as some sort of media way of "getting at" the great ND (posted the thread starter below, I think):

To some people's credit, they have completely dismissed this in the responses.



The sports media comprises a lot of bad people. Not just stupid -- bad. The type who, days after Matt James fell off a balcony and died, would rush to grab a soapbox and lecture grieving parents they've never met.

The type who would, less than a day after Declan Sullivan died, run a quote from Jim Tressel about practicing outdoors to score gotcha points on Notre Dame. Never mind that Tressel spoke the day before Declan's accident, lives five hours from Notre Dame, and is likely appalled that his comments have been taken out of context.

These people see tragedy as opportunity. You can choose to mourn Declan and pray for his family. You can choose not to. We may someday learn this accident was foreseeable and preventable. We may learn the opposite. But it is irresponsible and indecent to grind axes and rush to conclusions at this time.

We should take heed ourselves. Pray if you're inclined. If not, silence is appropriate.
 
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MililaniBuckeye;1801551; said:
I have to disagree with the bolded portion of your post. The kid was scared [censored]-less...
Click to expand...

Yeah Mili, what I meant was that they have no idea that it will be them that get killed. I was scared when I did most of the stupid shit I did when I was a kid. I just never thought though the consequences to me actually getting killed.

The reason there is a huge curve of 16 year olds getting hurt in car wrecks than 17, 17 more than 18 year olds, etc. One reason, in part, is that younger kids take more risks and are swayed by peer and outside pressure more than you do when you are older. Tell me to go up there in a high wind and I would tell you to fuck off. Tell me when I was 18 and I would have likely gone up just like he did, scared or no. But imagining that he was really going to die? How they respond to that is different in a young person. He was texting how bad it was, but likely not willing to bear the thought of losing the job or being thought a wimp.

There is a measure of self confidence that come with age that lets you make better decisions and more realistically evaluate risk. I hate that there are some placing the blame solely on him.
 
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Gatorubet;1801568; said:
Yeah Mili, what I meant was that they have no idea that it will be them that get killed. I was scared when I did most of the stupid shit I did when I was a kid. I just never thought though the consequences to me actually getting killed.

The reason there is a huge curve of 16 year olds getting hurt in car wrecks than 17, 17 more than 18 year olds, etc. One reason, in part, is that younger kids take more risks and are swayed by peer and outside pressure more than you do when you are older. Tell me to go up there in a high wind and I would tell you to fuck off. Tell me when I was 18 and I would have likely gone up just like he did, scared or no. But imagining that he was really going to die? How they respond to that is different in a young person. He was texting how bad it was, but likely not willing to bear the thought of losing the job or being thought a wimp.

There is a measure of self confidence that come with age that lets you make better decisions and more realistically evaluate risk. I hate that there are some placing the blame solely on him.
Click to expand...

There are those young kids who aren't scared (those who "They all think they are bullet proof at that age", as you put it), and those that are. I was virtually fearless on a motorcycle until I fucking broadsided a pickup at an intersection while doing almost 40 MPH, and was fortunate enough to avoid hitting the cab as I flew over the truck bed. After my motorcyle was repaired (front forks were bent completely back into the engine), it took me almost a month before I finally even got back on it, and nearly a year of riding before I would not have a near coronary as a approached any intersection. It took that "SEE" (significant emotional event) to rewire my risk-taking mindset from someone who thought he was "bullet proof" to someone who from that point on was cautious as hell.

The kid in the scissor jack, however, was scared the whole time while up in the tower...peer pressure, fear of losing his video position with the team, and/or other factors may have forced him to stay up there against his better judgment, but he was hardly of the "I'm fucking bullet-proof, bitch...this wind ain't blowing this tower over, and that's because I'm fucking in it" mentality.
 
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Simply Tragic

Besides Tressel's comments, it is not like "high wind problems with scissor lifts" are unknown to football coaches:


Other schools said they are careful to follow safety instructions from the manufacturers of the hydraulic lifts, some of which can extend to 40 feet high.
Penn State and the University of Michigan said their lifts are grounded if wind gusts reach 28 mph. On Tuesday and Wednesday, when much of the Midwest was being swept by winds much higher than that, the Wolverines football team practiced with lifts at 15 to 20 feet.
Athletic officials at the University of Wyoming and the University of North Carolina said they would look at adopting specific policies for video lifts. Ohio State coach Jim Tressel said he checks wind conditions when preparing for practice, even though the school installed permanent video towers last year.
"You try to get as safe as you can," he said. "The wind is a scary thing when you're up there."
Texas Tech football spokesman Blayne Beal said students on the Lubbock campus do not use scissor lifts at all when winds reach 40 mph, and they are allowed to go up only 20 feet when wind speeds reach 20 mph. Each person on the lift has a hand-held wind monitor.
"That gives us real-time data and they can make the instant decision to come down," Beal said.
At the University of Arizona, director of football operations Erick Harper said video staff must be certified to run and inspect the scissor lifts they rent. He said the certifications are done by the rental company.
"They have the authority to lower (the) lift as needed if they feel uncomfortable because many times the degree of wind 30-40 feet high can be different from on the ground," he wrote in an e-mail. "Our guys are harnessed in and ... if for some reason the camera stand lock breaks just let the camera fall."
Ole Miss has permanent towers, but video coordinator Andy Commer said he watches the weather just the same. "There isn't a football drill or practice in the world that's important enough to get somebody hurt or, God forbid, killed," Commer said. "We agreed that we're never going to make that call to a parent. The question I always ask myself is: 'Would I put my kid up there?'"

Entire article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101028...RzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNub3RyZWRhbWVhZGg-
 
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ScriptOhio;1801575; said:
Besides Tressel's comments, it is not like "high wind problems with scissor lifts" are unknown to football coaches:


Other schools said they are careful to follow safety instructions from the manufacturers of the hydraulic lifts, some of which can extend to 40 feet high.
Penn State and the University of Michigan said their lifts are grounded if wind gusts reach 28 mph. On Tuesday and Wednesday, when much of the Midwest was being swept by winds much higher than that, the Wolverines football team practiced with lifts at 15 to 20 feet.
Athletic officials at the University of Wyoming and the University of North Carolina said they would look at adopting specific policies for video lifts. Ohio State coach Jim Tressel said he checks wind conditions when preparing for practice, even though the school installed permanent video towers last year.
"You try to get as safe as you can," he said. "The wind is a scary thing when you're up there."
Texas Tech football spokesman Blayne Beal said students on the Lubbock campus do not use scissor lifts at all when winds reach 40 mph, and they are allowed to go up only 20 feet when wind speeds reach 20 mph. Each person on the lift has a hand-held wind monitor.
"That gives us real-time data and they can make the instant decision to come down," Beal said.
At the University of Arizona, director of football operations Erick Harper said video staff must be certified to run and inspect the scissor lifts they rent. He said the certifications are done by the rental company.
"They have the authority to lower (the) lift as needed if they feel uncomfortable because many times the degree of wind 30-40 feet high can be different from on the ground," he wrote in an e-mail. "Our guys are harnessed in and ... if for some reason the camera stand lock breaks just let the camera fall."
Ole Miss has permanent towers, but video coordinator Andy Commer said he watches the weather just the same. "There isn't a football drill or practice in the world that's important enough to get somebody hurt or, God forbid, killed," Commer said. "We agreed that we're never going to make that call to a parent. The question I always ask myself is: 'Would I put my kid up there?'"

Entire article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101028...RzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNub3RyZWRhbWVhZGg-
Click to expand...


We'll see how it plays out but when you make Ole Miss look more intelligent, reasoned and responsible than your institution of higher learning you have reached a special place.
 
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Newspaper photo of the fallen lift. Link Looks like damning evidence for a potential civil trial to me.

98ff9db8-0a43-43ac-a8b1-09dbad99bf43.jpg


AP Photo/The Notre Dame Observer, Sam Werner) MANDATORY CREDIT, NO SALES
 
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United Rentals: Notre Dame scissor lift isn't ours

SOUTH BEND ? The scissor lift that was being used by a 20-year-old Notre Dame student when it toppled Wednesday in the wind was not owned by United Rentals, according to a company spokesman.
"We were saddened to learn of this tragic accident," said Fred Bratman, a corporate spokesman for United Rentals. "We are continuing to investigate the matter, but have determined that the unit was neither owned nor rented by our company."
If a company sticker was on the lift, it might have been because United Rentals serviced the machine sometime in the past, Bratman said.

Entire article: http://www.southbendtribune.com/article/20101028/News01/101029330/1129/News

Translation: Don't sue us. :biggrin:
 
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MililaniBuckeye;1801574; said:
There are those young kids who aren't scared (those who "They all think they are bullet proof at that age", as you put it), and those that are. I was virtually fearless on a motorcycle until I fucking broadsided a pickup at an intersection while doing almost 40 MPH, and was fortunate enough to avoid hitting the cab as I flew over the truck bed. After my motorcyle was repaired (front forks were bent completely back into the engine), it took me almost a month before I finally even got back on it, and nearly a year of riding before I would not have a near coronary as a approached any intersection. It took that "SEE" (significant emotional event) to rewire my risk-taking mindset from someone who thought he was "bullet proof" to someone who from that point on was cautious as hell.

The kid in the scissor jack, however, was scared the whole time while up in the tower...peer pressure, fear of losing his video position with the team, and/or other factors may have forced him to stay up there against his better judgment, but he was hardly of the "I'm fucking bullet-proof, bitch...this wind ain't blowing this tower over, and that's because I'm fucking in it" mentality.
Click to expand...

For me, it was falling out the door of a Huey while inspecting a construction job and being caught by the pants leg and foot by a fellow soldier. The words, "Sarge, don't do that shit..." took on new meaning in life.
 
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Notre Dame's Kelly must go

There are some mistakes coaches can?t survive. Brian Kelly made one Wednesday.
Before Notre Dame reaches a financial settlement with the family of Declan Sullivan, the 20-year-old videographer who died in a tragic practice accident, the school must sever ties with its first-year head football coach.
Kelly should not coach the Irish on Saturday when they take on Tulsa.
We don?t need a thorough and exhaustive investigation to recognize Kelly?s negligence. A coach?s most important job, particularly at the amateur level, is to take every reasonable precaution to ensure the safety of the young people under his control.
Kelly failed in the worst way possible.
In recent years, Notre Dame dismissed Bob Davie, Tyrone Willingham and Charlie Weis for failing to win enough games. The school canned George O?Leary for exaggerating on his resume.
Those "crimes" pale in comparison to allowing student managers to go up in 50-foot-tall lifts to film practice in hazardous wind conditions.
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Kelly?s negligence is inexcusable. He ignored the risks. Notre Dame should treat Kelly like a drunk driver whose negligent behavior killed a passenger or another driver. An apology and a financial settlement are not enough.
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Notre Dame and athletic director Jack Swarbrick have no choice but to remove Kelly from his position. On Thursday, during a news conference, Swarbrick seemed most interested in making sure he retained his job and minimizing the public-relations damage.
Swarbrick made it clear that he was at practice less than four or five minutes before the lift holding Sullivan fell over. Swarbrick told reporters that he was on a conference call before he walked over to practice ? the inference being he wasn?t there long enough to tell Sullivan to come down from the lift.
Swarbrick then suggested the winds gusted with an unprecedented ferocity, leading to the accident that killed Sullivan.
?Things started flying by me that otherwise had been stationary for all of practice,? Swarbrick said. ?Gatorade containers, towels, etc. I noticed the netting on the goal posts start to bend dramatically, and I heard a crash.?
How does Swarbrick know what was ?stationary for all of practice? if he only arrived four or five minutes before the crash? And given the weather reports for that part of northern Indiana on Wednesday, it?s ridiculous for Swarbrick to suggest the 50-mph wind gusts were surprising.
Notre Dame might need a new coach and AD.

Entire article: http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefoo...st-fire-brian-kelly-over-student-death-102910

He's one reporter that thinks Kelly should be fired.
 
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One thing I keep thinking about is that we don't know the context of the conversation the kid was having with the "terrified" comments or what have you. He could have been making a sarcastic joke about it for all we know. Regardless though, it doesn't matter what the kid was thinking.

There were adults there, paid by the university that were responsible for workplace safety. Period.

I know a guy who's company was sued/fined because an employee got hurt using a box cutter in a job that required using a box cutter. They nailed him because the employee was using the wrong kind of box cutter and the supervisors didn't stop it.

I'm not a lawyer but to me the civil penalty and OSHA fine are foregone conclusions. The interesting thing is going to be the scapegoating. It seems to be a 3 man chain of command; video editor to Head Coach to Athletic Director. I honestly don't know if firing the video coordinator is going to be enough, in fact I kind of doubt it. Kelly and Swarbrick could be in real trouble here and from where I stand, with what we know so far, rightfully so.
 
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