NFL Discussion (Official Thread)

[Buckeneye]

7th in yards, 4th in passing 1st downs, blah blah blah. Look at those passes. He takes the snap and immediately throws it.

You can't just discount meaningful categories and substitute them with your own reality of "he immediately throws".

The time to throw is fast. But the clean pocket time is proportionately lower than QBs who frequently go further downfield - Allen, Lamar, Baker, Herbert, Hurts, etc etc

I could do that.

No, you couldn't.

They're manufactured yards.

Some, yes. But that's the new NFL. Attempting to manufacture offense for easy completions. The key is when it isn't so easy.

He's not the reason those yards pile up.

Well it sure hasn't been the surrounding cast the last few years. And if it was just Andy Reid and the design alone, then they wouldn't have had their asses kicked quite so bad by Tampa or Philly in two superbowls.

I'm not saying he's good, not great. I'm saying he's good, but people think he's football Jesus and we don't actually know because that scheme would make anybody look good

Two things.

- for what it's worth, I feel Joe Burrow is the best QB on the planet.

- What is the 'scheme'...? I ask this not to be combative, but wanting a genuine explanation. It's something I started asking people in 2022.

If you're making the accusation, by extension you have a great understanding of the cause. Can you, would you, kindly, explain the KC offensive scheme here in detail for me/us.. please and thank you?

It may help me to understand your position better.

. I promise you Justin Fields would look like a much better player if 80% of the time all he had to do was IMMEDIATELY throw to one "read". That's not even a read, it's an extended handoff.

Again, Fields still struggles to deliver the ball to open receivers off his primary right now, regardless of the system.

He cannot consistently make fast decisions without incredible hesitation, even when it is given to him.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

Again, Fields still struggles to deliver the ball to open receivers off his primary right now, regardless of the system.

See, I'm not even going to entertain your other stuff until we address this. Fields struggles to make reads. He's incredibly slow at it. His team around him sucks. If you take away the need to even make a read, he would get better. If all he had to do was receive the snap and throw it to a wide open player before the defense can blink, he would look exactly like what Mahomes looks like for about 80% of the game. You can't tell me he can't get the ball to open receivers when those receivers aren't running half a step routes. He can't get the ball to the JETS receivers in the JETS offense. He sure as shit could get the ball to a Jason Kelce who has taken 2 steps and then falls forward and it's already 2nd and 3. You could take a majority of the QBs in the league, have them do the same things Mahomes is asked to do, and they would have the same exact stats. That's my argument that you're trying to morph into me saying Mahomes is functionally retarded or something like that. I'm not saying that. I'm saying he doesn't even need to sweat half the time and he's guaranteed 200 and 2, just by not being Joe Bauserman.

 

[Buckeneye]

. If you take away the need to even make a read, he would get better.

Interesting.

Justin Pre-season week 1

Didn't even throw.




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[QUOTE/] If all he had to do was receive the snap and throw it to a wide open player before the defense can blink, he would look exactly like what Mahomes looks like for about 80% of the time [QUOTE/]


Justin, regular season, week 5










Justin fails to capitalize when it's ofered to him at the most basic level on a simple rub concept. KC runs this a lot and Mahomes connects quite often.

This is barely the surface of the evidence where Fields sees it, but doesn't throw or throws late. Yet you keep using him as an example to the contrary with no evidence of your own.

I think this is where our conversation comes to an impass and end. I have to adhere to reality.

And the reality is there's nothing to support Justin gets better if you just plugged him in where Patrick stands.

Because he can't even execute fundamental concepts the Chiefs, and many teams across the league, use for high percentage throws. Hell, he isn't even showing a modicum of progress in his own offense running the exact same plays.

Slapping a Chiefs uni on him won't magically make him connect on these throws.

When we acknowledge that, I'd be glad to pick up this conversation again. Until then, Go Bucks.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

Interesting.

Justin Pre-season week 1

Didn't even throw.

View attachment 77312View attachment 77313


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[QUOTE/] If all he had to do was receive the snap and throw it to a wide open player before the defense can blink, he would look exactly like what Mahomes looks like for about 80% of the time [QUOTE/]


Justin, regular season, week 5


View attachment 77314


View attachment 77315View attachment 77316




Justin fails to capitalize when it's ofered to him at the most basic level on a simple rub concept. KC runs this a lot and Mahomes connects quite often.

This is barely the surface of the evidence where Fields sees it, but doesn't throw or throws late. Yet you keep using him as an example to the contrary with no evidence of your own.

I think this is where our conversation comes to an impass and end. I have to adhere to reality.

And the reality is there's nothing to support Justin gets better if you just plugged him in where Patrick stands.

Because he can't even execute fundamental concepts the Chiefs, and many teams across the league, use for high percentage throws. Hell, he isn't even showing a modicum of progress in his own offense running the exact same plays.

Slapping a Chiefs uni on him won't magically make him connect on these throws.

When we acknowledge that, I'd be glad to pick up this conversation again. Until then, Go Bucks.

Dude, you're not hearing what I am saying. I'm going to try to say it as clearly as I can, because I'm not saying it well enough.

Put Justin Fields on the Chiefs.
Tell him to immediately throw to a receiver.
Don't make a read.
Just throw. Immediately.

That's it. That's the Mahomes plan for massive portions of the game. You can post 1000 different images of him not doing that on the Jets. You can post 1000 different pictures of puppies. They would carry the same weight. He's making reads in those images. Slowly. Poorly. Incorrectly. Put him on the Chiefs, take away the responsibility of making reads, he would have all your precious yards and stats.

 

[Buckeneye]

Put Justin Fields on the Chiefs.
Tell him to immediately throw to a receiver.
Don't make a read.
Just throw. Immediately.

Then can you explain why he is unable to do just that in the pictures here as I've submitted above?

This is Wilson motioning to a rub (sounds dirty)

Eye it.
See it.
Throw it.

It's as close to a "no read" as you can get at the NFL level. But he fails to execute these concepts a lot.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

Then can you explain why he is unable to do just that in the pictures here as I've submitted above?

This is Wilson motioning to a rub (sounds dirty)

Eye it.
See it.
Throw it.

It's as close to a "no read" as you can get at the NFL level. But he fails to execute these concepts a lot.

Because he's not asked to. Those pictures are 5 yard outs. The Chiefs are LOS outs.

 

[Jagdaddy]

I'm not comparing him straight up to JT. He's in the pros what JT was in college.

7th in yards, 4th in passing 1st downs, blah blah blah. Look at those passes. He takes the snap and immediately throws it. I could do that. They're manufactured yards. He's not the reason those yards pile up.

I'm not saying he's good, not great. I'm saying he's good, but people think he's football Jesus and we don't actually know because that scheme would make anybody look good. I promise you Justin Fields would look like a much better player if 80% of the time all he had to do was IMMEDIATELY throw to one "read". That's not even a read, it's an extended handoff.

The NFL is a notoriously copycat league, so I think my question here is why, if the scheme is so great that anyone can execute it, isn’t every team successfully doing it?

 

[RuGettinIt]

The NFL is a notoriously copycat league, so I think my question here is why, if the scheme is so great that anyone can execute it, isn’t every team successfully doing it?

Haven’t seen anyone doing the tush push to the level of the Eagles.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

The NFL is a notoriously copycat league, so I think my question here is why, if the scheme is so great that anyone can execute it, isn’t every team successfully doing it?

Never said anyone can execute it. I said most QBs put in place of Mahomes would be capable of most of what he is currently doing.

I use plain English, don't I?

 

[Onebuckfan]

Without the tush push Hurts is Justin Fields.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

Without the tush push Hurts is Justin Fields.

My fantasy team agrees

 

[Buckeneye]

Because he's not asked to.

No, that is wildly incorrect. This is a pre-snap out/in decision based on the leverage of the overhang pre-snap.

Man motions with Wilson.

--> Is in inside shade? ----> Yes Throw the out
--> Is he outside shade? ---> Yes Work the stick.

It's the NFL equivalent to a gimme.

What You're talking about are the stick/flat RPO's the Chiefs run. A lot of teams do, they just set it up so well because you have to account for their motions and Kelce.

So, I doubt you will, this has raised an incredible question for you to ask yourself.

- Is this topic FAR more complex than what you're making it -and- perhaps you don't have the understanding you believe you do ? (Dunning Kruger, to an extent)

- Or is everyone else wrong and somehow a league of 31 other professional coaches not able to get the same out of their QB's?


As mentioned above, it's a copy cat league. I have the all-22 and I'm one guy. A staff of dozens of coaches and assistant coaches should be able to pour through this in one off-season and duplicate it, no? So it's a bit odd they haven't, I would say.


I appreciate the chat, but this is where I take my leave.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

--> Is in inside shade? ----> Yes Throw the out
--> Is he outside shade? ---> Yes Work the stick.

This is a read, is it not?

So, I doubt you will, this has raised an incredible question for you to ask yourself.

No need to be a dick. I've gone through edits and things to make sure I'm not sounding like one to you.

As mentioned above, it's a copy cat league.

And as responded above, if the other teams had the talent the Chiefs did, they would probably do it, too. But they don't. The same way not everybody can Tush Push their way to only needing 8 yards for a first down.

 

[Buckeneye]

This is a read, is it not?

No. This is purely presnap. Something Mahomes has to do with the RPOs you're describing. Identify the overhang, throw off his leverage.

What you're saying that Mahomes is told exactly where to throw pre-snap by his coaches with no exception and no read, doesn't exist. Otherwise there would be a lot more INTs. He has to make the same pre&post snap sight adjusts off these builds.

No need to be a dick. I've gone through edits and things to make sure I'm not sounding like one to you.

I will apologize. At the same time, I'm saying this as nicely as I can - you're descriptions of the Chiefs offense are Narnia. A far off land that doesn't exist, but only in your mind.

And as responded above, if the other teams had the talent the Chiefs did, they would probably do it, too. But they don't.

This started with you admitting that Tyreek is gone and that the Chiefs don't have the talent they used to to float Mahomes.

Mahomes since Tyreek Hill left is just a game managing H Back

Now they have talent beyond all other teams? So which is it?

Cincy and Minnesota have some of the best, if not the best, WR corps in the NFL. Superior to the Chiefs. When healthy, the Niners lineup is as good as anyone's. Why wouldn't they setup Mac, Browning or McSpin pass with the same offense the Chiefs run to produce the same results then?

Unless what you're saying is perceived and not real.

Tush push

There's only one QB in the NFL squatting 500lbs that I know of. That's half the reason the Birds can execute that play.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

This started with you admitting that Tyreek is gone and that the Chiefs don't have the talent they used to to float Mahomes.

Now they have talent beyond all other teams? So which is it?

1. No it didn't. That was a time line indicator, not a cause and effect indicator. Since Tyreek left, Mahomes has regressed as a passer. Less down field things, more Mickey Mouse bullshit that I despise.
2. I'm not saying they have talent beyond all other teams. I'm saying it's different, not all worldly. The Lions have talent all over the field in other areas, so they don't do things the way the Chiefs do. The Patriots with Tom Brady had different talent. The Raiders have 0 talent, so they can't do any of it. Just because I'm saying they have unique talent, doesn't mean I'm saying they have more talent than anybody. Specifically, they have Andy Reid and....until the last 2 years.....Kelce.