Michigan State Spartans (official thread)

[Hstead]

The Duke lacrosse case was based on one person's word. Not comparable at all.

There have been more examples where the media rushed to judgement and condemned innocent folks, ie Gareon Conley.

Like I said, I will wait and see. It isn't like ESPN is incapable of taking someone's hidden agenda and blowing stuff out of proportion when it comes to Izzo or Dantonio. From what I have read so far, there isn't exactly a smoking gun other than a somewhat jilted former employee. I haven't read it all by any means and I will withhold my condemnation until I see something more than I have seen so far.

But go ahead, feel free to prosecute them all immediately, get the pitch forks.

 

[Buckeye513]

There have been more examples where the media rushed to judgement and condemned innocent folks, ie Gareon Conley.

Like I said, I will wait and see. It isn't like ESPN is incapable of taking someone's hidden agenda and blowing stuff out of proportion when it comes to Izzo or Dantonio. From what I have read so far, there isn't exactly a smoking gun other than a somewhat jilted former employee. I haven't read it all by any means and I will withhold my condemnation until I see something more than I have seen so far.

But go ahead, feel free to prosecute them all immediately, get the pitch forks.

There have also been multiple examples where asshats with their own agenda have invoked Duke lacrosse and been proven wrong. Somehow these people see the issue with the media condemning the accused before a trial, but have no problem implying the accusers are lying and/or have ulterior motives, which is exactly what bringing up Duke lacrosse (and Brian Banks) after every publicized sexual assault allegation does. "Wait and see" though.

Point was there's a difference in severity and seriousness between a he said/she said rape allegation and allegations of systemic abuse and neglect.

 

[Hstead]

There have also been multiple examples where asshats with their own agenda have invoked Duke lacrosse and been proven wrong. Somehow these people see the issue with the media condemning the accused before a trial, but have no problem implying the accusers are lying and/or have ulterior motives, which is exactly what bringing up Duke lacrosse (and Brian Banks) after every publicized sexual assault allegation does. "Wait and see" though.

Point was there's a difference in severity and seriousness between a he said/she said rape allegation and allegations of systemic abuse and neglect.

Did you read the "gotcha" police reports that ESPN thinks are so damning? They could be found on every college campus and in every community in America. If the rape allegations were so bad, why did the girl and her parents not go to the police? Why did the police, not the campus police by the way, and the prosecutor not bring charges in a couple of them? That's right, there wasn't any more "evidence" than he said she said and several times the "she said" didn't want to press charges.

Again, if you have read where there is overwhelming evidence to condemn Dantonio and Izzo, please present it. All I see are accusations of how awful it was to let Walton continue as a GA even though he was under investigation for hitting a woman. If you read all of the story, the prosecutor settled on a plea deal because there were witnesses that said she was not stuck. But wait, let's go back retroactively and convict Izzo because the prosecutor didn't find enough to convict Walton.

Like I said earlier, I will wait and see because so far I don't see anything so terrible that is any different than what is happening on every college across the country, among students and student/athletes.

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id...on-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn

• On Aug. 31, 2009, campus police responded to a domestic dispute involving a junior offensive tackle and his girlfriend in which each accused the other of destructive and violent behavior. The woman admitted to police vandalizing some of his belongings, and he admitted to trying to drag her out of her car, during which she said he removed her left shoe and began to bend her foot down "like he was trying to break it." Both declined to pursue charges.
  
  
• On Dec. 18, 2009, a woman told campus police that her boyfriend, a freshman defensive lineman, shoved her up against the wall of an elevator, pushed her to the ground, kicked her in the torso and punched her in the collarbone and under her left eye after she smacked him in the face. The football player told police he had been trying to restrain her while she tried to hit him, and he never kicked or struck her. Prosecutors dropped the case after the woman declined to press charges.
  • 
    
  • On Jan. 17, 2010, a woman told campus police that a freshman wide receiver and another football player had raped her in November 2009, prompting her to start drinking excessively and become suicidal. She said she went to the players' dorm room after a fraternity party, and the players took off her clothes and began kissing her, to which she consented. They asked her to perform oral sex on them, but she refused. She told police that when she decided to leave and bent over to put her pants on, she was raped. The players said the sex was consensual and that they took her home as soon she said she wanted to leave. Court records show no charges were filed.
    
    
  • On Aug. 31, 2013, a woman told campus police that a freshman running back grabbed her with both hands around her arms and slammed her up against a wall after she asked him to say "please" when he told her to take her feet off a chair in his dorm room. The woman had a scrape on her left elbow and on the upper side of her left buttock. The football player told police he had pushed her but never grabbed or threw her up against a wall. The woman told police she only wanted him to apologize, which he did in an officer's presence, and no charges were filed.
  • • On Oct. 29, 2013, a woman told campus police that she became extremely intoxicated at a party the night before, came back to her dorm room and passed out on her bed. The report states, "the next time she woke up, she was having her pants and legs tugged on by" a freshman football player. She said he "inserted his penis into her vagina" and "would stop and sometimes insert his penis into her mouth then return to vaginal intercourse," to which she said she did not consent. The player told police, "at no time did [the woman] tell him to stop." The woman texted him the next morning expressing regret, he told police. The woman told campus police that she did not want to seek criminal prosecution but did want to report the incident to Michigan State judicial services. No criminal charges were filed.
      
      
    • In May 2014, the parents of a deceased Michigan State student filed a report with campus police after they found a notebook from one of their daughter's therapy sessions. The writings detailed a 2007 gang rape that named four football players. Detectives started what would become a monthslong investigation involving multiple records, analysis and interviews. In June 2015, campus police sent its report to the Ingham County prosecutor's office, which declined to file charges against any of the players, noting that the woman's writings could not be used as evidence and investigators were unable to independently corroborate her claims.
      

 

[Buckeye513]

Did you read the "gotcha" police reports that ESPN thinks are so damning? They could be found on every college campus and in every community in America. If the rape allegations were so bad, why did the girl and her parents not go to the police? Why did the police, not the campus police by the way, and the prosecutor not bring charges in a couple of them? That's right, there wasn't any more "evidence" than he said she said and several times the "she said" didn't want to press charges.

Again, if you have read where there is overwhelming evidence to condemn Dantonio and Izzo, please present it. All I see are accusations of how awful it was to let Walton continue as a GA even though he was under investigation for hitting a woman. If you read all of the story, the prosecutor settled on a plea deal because there were witnesses that said she was not stuck. But wait, let's go back retroactively and convict Izzo because the prosecutor didn't find enough to convict Walton.

Like I said earlier, I will wait and see because so far I don't see anything so terrible that is any different than what is happening on every college across the country, among students and student/athletes.

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id...on-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn

• On Aug. 31, 2009, campus police responded to a domestic dispute involving a junior offensive tackle and his girlfriend in which each accused the other of destructive and violent behavior. The woman admitted to police vandalizing some of his belongings, and he admitted to trying to drag her out of her car, during which she said he removed her left shoe and began to bend her foot down "like he was trying to break it." Both declined to pursue charges.
  
  
• On Dec. 18, 2009, a woman told campus police that her boyfriend, a freshman defensive lineman, shoved her up against the wall of an elevator, pushed her to the ground, kicked her in the torso and punched her in the collarbone and under her left eye after she smacked him in the face. The football player told police he had been trying to restrain her while she tried to hit him, and he never kicked or struck her. Prosecutors dropped the case after the woman declined to press charges.
  • 
    
  • On Jan. 17, 2010, a woman told campus police that a freshman wide receiver and another football player had raped her in November 2009, prompting her to start drinking excessively and become suicidal. She said she went to the players' dorm room after a fraternity party, and the players took off her clothes and began kissing her, to which she consented. They asked her to perform oral sex on them, but she refused. She told police that when she decided to leave and bent over to put her pants on, she was raped. The players said the sex was consensual and that they took her home as soon she said she wanted to leave. Court records show no charges were filed.
    
    
  • On Aug. 31, 2013, a woman told campus police that a freshman running back grabbed her with both hands around her arms and slammed her up against a wall after she asked him to say "please" when he told her to take her feet off a chair in his dorm room. The woman had a scrape on her left elbow and on the upper side of her left buttock. The football player told police he had pushed her but never grabbed or threw her up against a wall. The woman told police she only wanted him to apologize, which he did in an officer's presence, and no charges were filed.
  • • On Oct. 29, 2013, a woman told campus police that she became extremely intoxicated at a party the night before, came back to her dorm room and passed out on her bed. The report states, "the next time she woke up, she was having her pants and legs tugged on by" a freshman football player. She said he "inserted his penis into her vagina" and "would stop and sometimes insert his penis into her mouth then return to vaginal intercourse," to which she said she did not consent. The player told police, "at no time did [the woman] tell him to stop." The woman texted him the next morning expressing regret, he told police. The woman told campus police that she did not want to seek criminal prosecution but did want to report the incident to Michigan State judicial services. No criminal charges were filed.
      
      
    • In May 2014, the parents of a deceased Michigan State student filed a report with campus police after they found a notebook from one of their daughter's therapy sessions. The writings detailed a 2007 gang rape that named four football players. Detectives started what would become a monthslong investigation involving multiple records, analysis and interviews. In June 2015, campus police sent its report to the Ingham County prosecutor's office, which declined to file charges against any of the players, noting that the woman's writings could not be used as evidence and investigators were unable to independently corroborate her claims.

Ok.

Nowhere did I say that either Izzo or Dantonio should be prosecuted or even resign at this point in time, so I don't know what your apparently very emotional and invested point is. None of this is related or similar to Duke lacrosse in any way.

Edit: Also,

I don't see anything so terrible that is any different than what is happening on every college across the country, among students and student/athletes.

that's the fucking problem, Caligula.

 

[kujirakira]

We saw a mild version of it during the Tressel wars. Some of the dimmer, less well moderated Ohio State boards than BP were pretty close to going off the BWI cliff in the crazy conspiracy theories they were coming up with to vindicate Tressel. Would those same people go through the same mental gymnastics to justify pedophilia or rape that they did to justify lying to the university and ncaa? Who knows. I hope not.

What seems to separate ped state was the crazy Paterno cult as well as their physical isolation and tame, subservient local press. None of that is present at Sparty, so I hope the rational voices among their alums and fans will be the dominant ones.

Umm...I seem to recall reading how Tress had thrown himself on the tracks to spare the University because of an FBI set-up. May or may not have involved someone's grandmother bound and gagged in a basement. It was in one of the alternate All In or Not threads here.

Just sayin'...crazy is an equal opportunity participant.

To be fair he also wasn't 'guilty' of anything.
He turned a blind eye to imaginary ncaa shit while the ncaa turns a blind eye to half the sec and miami every year.

What competitive advantage did we gain from players selling personal property at or below fmv?

This is a whole different level of fuckery. I know every fanbase has that BWI element... but i trust it's not prominent enough to run the University in Cbus.
I can never imagine Archie turning into a monster or apologist like some.
I'll wait to see a bit more wtf is going on w/MSU but it'a sounding similar to Baylor so far. Sad.

Full disclosure: I got banned from here after a certain 2006 season ending game for being reasonably critical of Tress and didnt come back 'til 2013.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

If the rape allegations were so bad, why did the girl and her parents not go to the police? Why did the police, not the campus police by the way, and the prosecutor not bring charges in a couple of them? That's right, there wasn't any more "evidence" than he said she said and several times the "she said" didn't want to press charges.

I want to be clear that I’m not arguing for or against any overall point you’re making. Having said that, these questions are dangerous. Some rape victims are too afraid to go to police at all, and rape can happen without there being evidence.

 

[Hstead]

Ok.

Nowhere did I say that either Izzo or Dantonio should be prosecuted or even resign at this point in time, so I don't know what your apparently very emotional and invested point is. None of this is related or similar to Duke lacrosse in any way.

Edit: Also,
that's the fucking problem, Caligula.

Just what are you trying to say, as I have read your posts and can't see that you have presented much of anything other than mischaracterize my post as "emotional" which is laughable as you have no idea what I am thinking, and to call me names. You haven't produced anything really.

From what I have read, I am going to wait and see.

 

[Oh8ch]

Rape can happen without out evidence.
Rape accusations can happen without rape.
Rape victims are due justice.
Some rape accusers have agendas independent of any alleged assault.

Individual cases are the very definition of "the devil is in the details".

But the MSU situation from an administrative standpoint is much simpler. What action was taken when an accusation came to their attention. Guilt or innocence is not an issue from that perspective. That was true at PSU and it is true here.

 

[Hstead]

I want to be clear that I’m not arguing for or against any overall point you’re making. Having said that, these questions are dangerous. Some rape victims are too afraid to go to police at all, and rape can happen without there being evidence.

Very good point and I can understand that sometimes a victim wouldn't want to come forward, but she did come forward and her parents were involved. I can't imagine parents not going to the police. But you never know.

 

[Buckeye513]

Just what are you trying to say, as I have read your posts and can't see that you have presented much of anything other than mischaracterize my post as "emotional" which is laughable as you have no idea what I am thinking, and to call me names. You haven't produced anything really.

From what I have read, I am going to wait and see.

Stated my point pretty clearly.

Point was there's a difference in severity and seriousness between a he said/she said rape allegation and allegations of systemic abuse and neglect.

Michigan State has been accused of the latter, and that may or may not involve Tom Izzo and Mark Dantonio. I don't see any connection between Nassar and the football or basketball programs, but considering the failures of the administration and Mark Hollis, I'd be surprised if their morally bankrupt image protection was limited to a serial child molester, particularly when they've got two major D1 revenue sports that have a tendency to be populated by immature and entitled athletes. Again, this is not similar to Duke lacrosse. At all.

There's a list of allegations, some of which you posted yourself. That you see nothing wrong with them because things like that "happen everywhere" is dumb as shit and whether or not that offends you doesn't matter to me. That kind of neanderthalic thinking is how we got to a point where sexual assault, especially sexual assault on college campuses, became normalized and acceptable. Football and basketball should be under investigation and scrutiny. Doesn't mean Izzo and Dantonio should be tarred and feathered tomorrow, though I'm not surprised that people who can't help themselves from wondering if everything is just a Duke lacrosse-esque witch hunt take it that way.

 

[sparcboxbuck]

Rape can happen without out evidence.
Rape accusations can happen without rape.
Rape victims are due justice.
Some rape accusers have agendas independent of any alleged assault.

Individual cases are the very definition of "the devil is in the details".

But the MSU situation from an administrative standpoint is much simpler. What action was taken when an accusation came to their attention. Guilt or innocence is not an issue from that perspective. That was true at PSU and it is true here.

Exactly. This, among other things, as far as MSU is concerned, is about the system in place failing to protect children.

I think we all understand that rape, as well as other assaults go under-reported for multiple reasons. Likewise, we’ve all seen situations where the accused was no where near as guilty as the media would have had us believe... and even instances where accusers manipulated the system under the heading of spite.

None of those situations are OK.

However, when institutions are charged with keeping young people safe and fail to do that, there has to be investigations. When it is systemic, as this case seems to be, things need to be looked at with great detail to ensure this does not happen again. Nobody should consider themselves safe nor be indigent about their affairs being looked into with regard to these matters. It is just part of the territory when you have responsibilities for young people.

It will take time, but I feel confident that guilty parties will get what’s coming to them.

Arguing about straw man examples from the past are not productive as each side can point to great examples that support their opinion. But we can all agree that when it’s said and done, if the guilty parties have their heads on a plate and justice is served, absent rewinding the clock, that’s the best that can be done.

 

[Hstead]

Stated my point pretty clearly.
Michigan State has been accused of the latter, and that may or may not involve Tom Izzo and Mark Dantonio. I don't see any connection between Nassar and the football or basketball programs, but considering the failures of the administration and Mark Hollis, I'd be surprised if their morally bankrupt image protection was limited to a serial child molester, particularly when they've got two major D1 revenue sports that have a tendency to be populated by immature and entitled athletes. Again, this is not similar to Duke lacrosse. At all.

There's a list of allegations, some of which you posted yourself. That you see nothing wrong with them because things like that "happen everywhere" is dumb as [Mark May] and whether or not that offends you doesn't matter to me. That kind of neanderthalic thinking is how we got to a point where sexual assault, especially sexual assault on college campuses, became normalized and acceptable. Football and basketball should be under investigation and scrutiny. Doesn't mean Izzo and Dantonio should be tarred and feathered tomorrow, though I'm not surprised that people who can't help themselves from wondering if everything is just a Duke lacrosse-esque witch hunt take it that way.

You seem to be attaching some meaning to my posts that I am not intending to convey. The duke Lacrosse is a perfect example, as are dozens of others, where the media attempts to be the “first” to this or that and a story is either blown out of proportion or totally fabricated, hence I reserve judgement until I learn more about the actual facts of each individual claim. I’m not rushing to judgement regarding the MSU situation.

The police reports I posted are the supposed smoking gun. When I read those, I don’t see systemic cover up. I see everyday occurrences such as “boy friend girl friend got in a fight both pushed each other the police were called and no one pressed charges” and the “he pushed her and she asked for an apology”.

I would be stunned if those “smoking gun police reports” were ever brought to anyone’s attention other than the responding officer as they shouldn’t be.

As for the two alleged rapes, one I question because the parents went to the AD instead of the cops. WTF?

My daughter is a Soph at OSU. If something bad happens to her we are going to the Cubs police, not Gene Smith.

I made my daughter watch the documentary about rape on college campuses that have been covered up, not by athletic departments singularly, but by schools fearful of bad PR. That is disgusting and the reason I made her watch it.

Once again, I will wait and see further evidence though before I condemn MSU solely on the ESPN article and the flimsy reports I’ve seen so far. If you have greater evidence please present it because so far it is he said she said and most are not rape allegations.

As for Walton, what is Izzo supposed to do fire the guy when charges are filed even though he and some other witnesses claim he is innocent and then rehire him if not convicted? ESPN acts as if Izzo committed a crime by not firing him. That is the kind of made up BS “journalism” that sends up red flags for me demonstrating maybe they have an agenda. Let the facts and evidence speak for themselves not some made up faux outrage about how Izzo should have fired a guy because he was charged.

I can think of a few Buckeyes that would have been kicked off of the team unnecessarily if that is the standard.

 

[ExpatAkronite]

You seem to be attaching some meaning to my posts that I am not intending to convey. The duke Lacrosse is a perfect example, as are dozens of others, where the media attempts to be the “first” to this or that and a story is either blown out of proportion or totally fabricated, hence I reserve judgement until I learn more about the actual facts of each individual claim. I’m not rushing to judgement regarding the MSU situation.

The police reports I posted are the supposed smoking gun. When I read those, I don’t see systemic cover up. I see everyday occurrences such as “boy friend girl friend got in a fight both pushed each other the police were called and no one pressed charges” and the “he pushed her and she asked for an apology”.

I would be stunned if those “smoking gun police reports” were ever brought to anyone’s attention other than the responding officer as they shouldn’t be.

As for the two alleged rapes, one I question because the parents went to the AD instead of the cops. WTF?

My daughter is a Soph at OSU. If something bad happens to her we are going to the Cubs police, not Gene Smith.

I made my daughter watch the documentary about rape on college campuses that have been covered up, not by athletic departments singularly, but by schools fearful of bad PR. That is disgusting and the reason I made her watch it.

Once again, I will wait and see further evidence though before I condemn MSU solely on the ESPN article and the flimsy reports I’ve seen so far. If you have greater evidence please present it because so far it is he said she said and most are not rape allegations.

As for Walton, what is Izzo supposed to do fire the guy when charges are filed even though he and some other witnesses claim he is innocent and then rehire him if not convicted? ESPN acts as if Izzo committed a crime by not firing him. That is the kind of made up BS “journalism” that sends up red flags for me demonstrating maybe they have an agenda. Let the facts and evidence speak for themselves not some made up faux outrage about how Izzo should have fired a guy because he was charged.

I can think of a few Buckeyes that would have been kicked off of the team unnecessarily if that is the standard.

...and if not for journalism (specifically a team of investigative reporters from the Indy Star) Nassar would still be "examining" girls and young women. Given the choices (and sure they don't always get it right) I'll take journalism over the alternative.

 

[BB73]

Very good point and I can understand that sometimes a victim wouldn't want to come forward, but she did come forward and her parents were involved. I can't imagine parents not going to the police. But you never know.

Here's a Washington Post article that follows the timeline of Nassar's accusers. It includes several incidents where the parent or parents didn't go to the police because they either didn't want to believe their daughter, they thought it could have a negative effect on the daughter's prospects in athletic endeavor's, they thought it would be too traumatic for their daughter to have to talk about the abuse, or some other reason. Each of those parents, as well as the administrators and investigators who never looked closely enough to stop Nassar, must live with the fact that their lack of action may well have allowed Nassar to abuse dozens more young girls and women.

...
Between 1995 and 2015, according to testimony and court filings, 13 girls and women said they raised complaints about Nassar, who continued to treat — and assault — his patients until the 14th went to law enforcement — and the Indianapolis Star — in August 2016.

It’s a timeline of people and organizations accused of failure to respond aggressively to suspicions of abuse that includes institutions under fire this week: Michigan State University, USA Gymnastics and the U.S. Olympic Committee but also the FBI, a local police force, a local gymnastics center and the parents of several victims, along with others they say they consulted before deciding not to contact law enforcement.
....

 

[BB73]

Here's another portion of that Washington Post article, and it illustrates the culpability and liability for the Sparty athletic department.

...
After the Title IX investigation concluded, Nassar and his boss — William Strampel, then the dean of Michigan State’s College of Osteopathic Medicine — agreed to conditions to prevent another “misinterpretation.” Nassar was never to perform this type of treatment again without a chaperon in the room and would modify it, he agreed, to minimize skin to skin contact.

After Nassar’s arrest, Michigan State police and the FBI jointly interviewed several of Nassar’s supervisors and colleagues. According to the police report, released late last year, Strampel conceded he never intended to ensure Nassar was following these conditions because the Title IX inquiry cleared him and these were “common sense” measures.
...

How difficult would it have been at that point for Strampel to tell the AD about the situation (perhaps he did), and for the AD to inform the coach of every women's athletic team that Nassar had been accused of inappropriate behavior during examinations, and that he should never be allowed to examine a female without another female in the room? (It's apparent the AD never did such a thing)

It should be a policy for all organizations that children should not be examined or treated with a single individual present, regardless of the individual's supposed integrity or reputation. The other person in the room should not have a personal or professional relationship with the person doing the treatment/examination, and ideally would be someone trained in handling Title IX issues. The extra expense for that person can certainly be justified when one considers the cost to Penn State and Sparty for what they allowed to happen, and it's certainly justified as a protection to the children. If you have children, you may want to insist on something like that to protect them.