Lebron James (Los Angeles Lakers)

[lvbuckeye]

I was referring to the part where you said you think MJ wouldn't have taken LeBron's teams as far, and specifically stating that it isn't like LeBron hasn't won it all. So I was looking at LeBron's 2 championships, and they clearly weren't teams that were LeBron plus fillers like they are this Finals. You can say Wade was not as good as Pippen, and you probably are right but Wade is still a future HoFer. And at the same time Bosch was better than MJ's 3rd best player most seasons (I'd probably go Rodman for at least part of the second three-peat, but Bosch over any first three-peat third best player). And think of just how outrageous MJ's run was. Even if he had Pippen, he still won 6 titles in an 8 year span, and if he didn't get bored and wanted to try baseball he easily could have won 8 titles IN A ROW. That's stupid, regardless of surrounding cast. And even his second retirement he was still one of the elite players in the league. I mean [Mark May] the dude won MVP his last year (ignoring Washington). That Bulls team was probably done, but just stating that he was dominating the league up until he didn't feel like it. He Jerry Seinfeld'd the NBA. He didn't get passed up, he just retired with probably a few great years left and obviously a couple more very good ones after that (still was solid when playing for the Wizards). So I guess that's a long way of saying that I think you've somehow managed to underrate MJ. I mean could he put up triple doubles at the rate LBJ does if he was forced to? Probably not. But the dude just fucking wins. I could make an argument, and one that I believe to be true, that Jordan wins the championship all 4 years at Miami. But I will say that at the same time I don't think he could have won it all with Cleveland's talent either that LBJ up until this year, which he doesn't have for the Finals. This may be the only season that will convince people that MAYBE LBJ is better than MJ, since MJ didn't win with scrubs. But the question of do I think he could if needed to when he was in his prime like LBJ is? Yes, I do.

Also BTW I ignored 2007 because he didn't win it all. I was trying to highlight seasons of winning it all, not deep playoff runs. So my comment was that he never won in the past without great teammates, and in theory he won't win in the future without great teammates if Kyrie+Love are back. So therefore this is most likely his only shot to do so before he's "forced" to win it all with talent around him.

Just curious. What guy, ever, has won an NBA championship without another HOFer with him?

36. That's the number of postseason games that LBJ has lead his team in points, rebounds, and assists. BY FAR the most ever. Second place is 13. Has ANYONE done more with less than LeBron? I highly doubt it

 

[Mike80]

Just curious. What guy, ever, has won an NBA championship without another HOFer with him?

36. That's the number of postseason games that LBJ has lead his team in points, rebounds, and assists. BY FAR the most ever. Second place is 13. Has ANYONE done more with less than LeBron? I highly doubt it

1 that I have found so far - the 1978-79 Super Sonics - they had Dennis Johnson before he went to the Celtics. That was the year immediately before the Lakers started taking over the 80s with the Celtics and Pistons and eventually the Bulls going into the 90s...

It'll be interesting to see who off of the 2004 Pistons is in the HOF if anyone - the only one with a legit chance is Chauncey Billups. Otherwise, I don't think that team had any HOF-caliber players on it.

 

[Mike80]

I hear the comment made that the league was much more physical. It's awfully physical right now. There may be certain things that were allowed (like maybe hand-checking?) but today's NBA is still an awfully physical game.

The games are called much tighter now (and the fines for fighting are much higher now) than they were in the 80s and early 90s. Guys like Charles Oakley wouldn't be able to exist in today's NBA whereas in the timeframe he played he thrived as a rebounder and physical enforcer. He was drafted by the Bulls to act in that role and provided backup for Ewing, Mason and Starks in New York as well.

Also, the game is played entirely differently now than it was 20 years ago. With more Euros (most of whom are not physical at all) who are considered to be "skilled" bigs, traditional centers and power forwards don't live from the FT line in, but from the top of the key depending on the set, because they can routinely hit that shot.

 

[MaxBuck]

After what he's done in this series so far, if the Cavs win the title I'm about ready to rank LBJ above Jordan. Incredible job of leadership and on-court performance.

 

[Jake]

Ah yes....those HOFers like Stever Kerr and Ron Harper. Luc Longley was the key ingredient! 84 year old John Salley was worth 10 wins alone!

You left off Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen. Both are hall of famers, and Jordan won nothing without them.

The truth is, my initial comment wasn't about ripping Jordan but defending LeBron. He has spent most of his career having to try and do more with less than Jordan. That doesn't mean Jordan wasn't great. But if the only measuring stick is NBA titles then that brings the supporting cast into the discussion.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

You left off Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen. Both are hall of famers, and Jordan won nothing without them.

The truth is, my initial comment wasn't about ripping Jordan but defending LeBron. He has spent most of his career having to try and do more with less than Jordan. That doesn't mean Jordan wasn't great. But if the only measuring stick is NBA titles then that brings the supporting cast into the discussion.

I didn't leave off anybody. We were past that point in the discussion.

It's a good thing the only measuring stick isn't titles.

 

[AKAK]

You left off Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen. Both are hall of famers, and Jordan won nothing without them.

The truth is, my initial comment wasn't about ripping Jordan but defending LeBron. He has spent most of his career having to try and do more with less than Jordan. That doesn't mean Jordan wasn't great. But if the only measuring stick is NBA titles then that brings the supporting cast into the discussion.

The following comment isn't meant to be argumentative, only an observation. There is, with any transcendent athlete, the rising tide floats all boats factor too... or "makes the players around him better" commentary, which is crap, what they do is both lead by example and make their lives easier at the same time. So, for the secondary players in these arguments, be they Steve Kerr, Scottie Pippen, or whoever... there's a chicken or the Egg factor... what would be the historical view of Scottie Pippen had he played his entire career in say... Sacramento... or does Phil Jackson ever get to coach Kobe and Shaq in LA if he doesn't take over the Bulls at that precise moment in time.

From that perspective, the move to Miami gives Lebron to some degree the more known quantities in Wade and Bosh than Pippen or Jackson.

Having said all that... I can't remember who posted the list of "Bulls good without Jordan" etc etc... but thinking about that, and thinking about it, the marker on the timeline was, what day did Jordan go from prolific scorer to the guy that made every practice his own personal hell and become a leader and elevate the performance of his teammates by his example.

In this way, to me, Jordan and LeBron are very similar (and none of this is lost on James, make no mistake... James isn't blazing his own trail here, why would he?) but, indeed its its own skill set... and probably the main factor between the Pre and post Jackson Bulls, and the 2007 Cavs and the 2015 Cavs... this isn't the same LeBron James as a leader on the floor.

It seems the do it differently where Jordan looked for the "don't care what you do when you're not here but you need to get with the program when you are" approach, where LeBron seems to do it in a more holistic "team must love one another" kind of way that reaches off the court more. But, there are obvious parallels with the JR Smith and Dennis Rodman types... etc. The common commitment to ferocious defense... etc.

My thought is, regardless of what happens in this series... if you're gonna continue the LeBron as multi year dynastic leader is to get where the Bulls were in that LeBron needs to carry less of the load, and only intervene if the game gets on the line (at least in the regular season).

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

The games are called much tighter now (and the fines for fighting are much higher now) than they were in the 80s and early 90s. Guys like Charles Oakley wouldn't be able to exist in today's NBA whereas in the timeframe he played he thrived as a rebounder and physical enforcer. He was drafted by the Bulls to act in that role and provided backup for Ewing, Mason and Starks in New York as well.

True, but they had to have the looser rules in the old days because of Danny Ainge. That guy was just constantly begging for a good ass kicking, and it was only right of the NBA to allow the players to give the fans what they wanted.

 

[exhawg]

My thought is, regardless of what happens in this series... if you're gonna continue the LeBron as multi year dynastic leader is to get where the Bulls were in that LeBron needs to carry less of the load, and only intervene if the game gets on the line (at least in the regular season).

Not to look ahead, but I can't wait to see what the Cavs look like next season if everyone comes back healthy. The only 2 sure departures are Haywood and Marion. I'm guessing they would bring Jones and/or Perk back for minimum contracts if they want to stay since they are Lebron guys. Miller has another year on his contract that I doubt he'll opt out of. They shouldn't have any trouble finding a couple title chasers to fill out the roster. They have to find a 3rd PG hopefully with quickness and the ability to defend the Teague/Rose type of PG. I'd like to have another 3&D SF to backup Lebron or else you are playing Delly more at SG and Smith/Shump at SF. The bigs will be fine with Love, Mozzy, TT, and Andy. They did most of the heavy lifting this season so next year should see a better minute distribution to keep everyone fresh and healthy all season.

 

[matcar]

You left off Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen. Both are hall of famers, and Jordan won nothing without them.

The truth is, my initial comment wasn't about ripping Jordan but defending LeBron. He has spent most of his career having to try and do more with less than Jordan. That doesn't mean Jordan wasn't great. But if the only measuring stick is NBA titles then that brings the supporting cast into the discussion.

By the way, the Cavs would kill for a role player like Rodman.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

By the way, the Cavs would kill for a role player like Rodman.

would they? they're getting 20 ppg from the guy who bags groceries at Kroger.

 

[Bucklion]

By the way, the Cavs would kill for a role player like Rodman.

would they? they're getting 20 ppg from the guy who bags groceries at Kroger.

And Rodman rebounding from Tsquared

 

[Bucklion]

I hear the comment made that the league was much more physical. It's awfully physical right now. There may be certain things that were allowed (like maybe hand-checking?) but today's NBA is still an awfully physical game.

Everyone who played in the 80s says it is way less physical now...it is still physical in some series, but Cavs/Celtics was every series in the 80s. Find the famous clothesline from McHale to Rambis...that was barely called a foul.

 

[jlb1705]

Everyone who played in the 80s says it is way less physical now...it is still physical in some series, but Cavs/Celtics was every series in the 80s. Find the famous clothesline from McHale to Rambis...that was barely called a foul.

My parents also told me when they walked to school it was uphill both ways.

Retired athletes in pretty much every sport say it was more physical when they played. Has anybody ever heard a retired athlete say, "It's way more physical now than when I played. We were all pussies back then."

 

[Bucklion]

My parents also told me when they walked to school it was uphill both ways.

Retired athletes in pretty much every sport say it was more physical when they played. Has anybody ever heard a retired athlete say, "It's way more physical now than when I played. We were all pussies back then."

Well I watched in the 80s and I would say the level of physicality isn't even close. But whatever, if people want to believe that new is always greater, whom am I to stop them.