Lebron James (Los Angeles Lakers)

[matcar]

one of the best shooters ever in the game, vs. john paxon. spot on.

Their roles were pretty similar no? I think Paxson had 8 points in that final game when he hit that shot. Meanwhile Allen had 9. So I guess you are right....TOTALLY different. Lolz.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

I'd like to see him go to the Knicks. If he could handle the pressure from the NYC media and passionate fans who truly care about their team, that would say a lot.

Of course, if that pressure cracked him, it would be entertaining as hell.

In Lebron's defense, the more I see of the current NBA stars (starting with our own D Flower), the more I don't think Lebron is that out of the ordinary but rather par for the course with this group of semi-literate, media obsessed man-children.

 

[BayBuck]

Oh jesus. Somebody asked for the stat so I provided it. Obviously there's going to be a small sample size in that situation. If you don't think that's a good way of measuring "clutch" (which is in itself somewhat abstract), that's your prerogative.

I know you didn't come up with the stat, but whoever did -- did it to prove a particular point. It's so specifically limited as to be almost meaningless: put it against the careers of MJ and Kobe et al, and maybe it means something, since that's the whole discussion anyway. But I think "clutch" doesn't always need to be in game-tying/winning situations with 24 seconds remaining.

 

[Bucky32]

I'd like to see him go to the Knicks. If he could handle the pressure from the NYC media and passionate fans who truly care about their team, that would say a lot.

Of course, if that pressure cracked him, it would be entertaining as hell.

In Lebron's defense, the more I see of the current NBA stars (starting with our own D Flower), the more I don't think Lebron is that out of the ordinary but rather par for the course with this group of semi-literate, media obsessed man-children.

This is the thing NBA fans have to begin accepting. It's a transient league now. Fewer and fewer players will stick with one team anymore; the goal is now to surround yourself with as much talent as you can in order to win a championship while your window is open. It's happening right now with the Clippers. I think in hindsight LeBron's decision will look like the norm rather than the exception, albeit the most prominent one.

 

[tsteele316]

Their roles were pretty similar no? I think Paxson had 8 points in that final game when he hit that shot. Meanwhile Allen had 9. So I guess you are right....TOTALLY different. Lolz.

yes, that player's scoring in that one particular game is clearly the measure of their impact. again, spot on.

 

[tsteele316]

This is the thing NBA fans have to begin accepting. It's a transient league now. Fewer and fewer players will stick with one team anymore; the goal is now to surround yourself with as much talent as you can in order to win a championship while your window is open. It's happening right now with the Clippers. I think in hindsight LeBron's decision will look like the norm rather than the exception, albeit the most prominent one.

except the new CBA makes this nearly impossible, which is also something the clippers are quickly starting to realize.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

The point I made that you ignore is that MJ had role players such as Paxson just as James does with folks like Ray Allen.

Hate on man, hate on.

Who the fuck doesn't have role players? Even the Yankees had at least 1 role player while they were buying championships. What point does that make?

The argument was that Lebron needed to puss out and go form an all star squad to be able to win his titles (and he needed 7 games for it. Jordan doesn't even know that finals can go 7 games).

Thanks for your permission to hate the way the supposed best player in the game goes about his douchebaggery.

 

[Diego-Bucks]

Who the fuck doesn't have role players? Even the Yankees had at least 1 role player while they were buying championships. What point does that make?

The argument was that Lebron needed to puss out and go form an all star squad to be able to win his titles (and he needed 7 games for it. Jordan doesn't even know that finals can go 7 games).

Thanks for your permission to hate the way the supposed best player in the game goes about his douchebaggery.

Isn't the argument more about how championship teams are constructed and that LeBron's team is constructed in a fundamentally different way than Chicago's? The idea of the "Big Three" in this era started with the Boston Celtics getting Garnett and Allen to team with Pierce. Before that though (in this immediate era), the Lakers and the Mavericks in the 00's had long attempted to acquire boatloads of talent to win titles as opposed to a bit more 'organically' grown teams like the Pistons and the Spurs. What does that matter?

What I find interesting is the narrative specific to Chris Bosh being part of the Big Three, being the NBA's premier PF in 2009 (the year before his free agency), and generally being a great player. Bosh has never really been a premier PF (at least in the typical PF definition) but he played really well in Toronto, similar to Shawn Marion playing great in Phoenix for so many years. Quietly accumulate stats on inferior teams, get attention, and prior to a trade or free agent year you'll be lauded by the media. Bosh is a really good player, great in certain aspects, but the things he is great at are not really consistent with a typical PF. I don't think Bosh has been a very valuable addition to the Heat's Big Three like Garnett was to the Celtics or like Duncan is to the Spurs. He's a top 10 (former top 5) NBA PF that does some good/great things, but not in the paint. I think that ESPN and other major NBA media created the narrative that Bosh is greater than he really is to make the idea of Wade/LeBron/Bosh signing together much more 'sexy'.

I clarify my thoughts on Bosh to just bring context to "The Decision" and how if we look at the talent levels between the 90's Bulls and the Heat (which is retarded but people want to make MJ to LeBron comparisons) we see similar levels of talent on both sides. The 91-93 Bulls have Horace Grant (a top-10 NBA PF and very talented), BJ Armstrong (a world-class 3-pt shooter in his era), Bill Worthington (a stereotypical NBA center), John Paxson (a good/great outside shooter), and a young Scott Williams (a tremendous off the bench F/C) to go with Jordan and Pippin. The 95-97 Bulls have Dennis Rodman (a world-class PF that worked great in the paint), Luc Longley (stereotypical NBA center), Ron Harper (great all-around player), Toni Kukoc (a great all-around player and scorer), Steve Kerr (great outside shooter) and a young Jason Caffey (solid bench PF).

I think these compare similarly to the talent levels of the recent Miami Heat in team composition. Ray Allen at this point in his career is a world-class jump shooter that plays the role of Kerr/Armstrong/Paxson, while Battier is somewhat of a tweener like Kukoc (admittedly I think Kukoc was much better at that point for the Bulls than Battier is for this Miami Heat team). The Bulls also had Phil Jackson... the greatest NBA coach in league history. But anyone that looks at the Bulls of the 90's and sees Jordan, maybe Pippin and that's it is fooling themselves and only looking back at the fondness of Jordan memories. Those teams had a ton of talent and were very well composed.

I think the differences I see are that Chris Bosh's talents do not compare to the player types of Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman (dominant inside presence) to facilitate increased 'chemistry' for LeBron and Wade like Grant/Rodman did for Pippin and Jordan. This is the fault of the Heat's management decision to sign the Big Three with little regards to on the floor lineups. They have won so far, but I don't anticipate them to maintain success with the aging Wade and the 'soft' Bosh. They will have to find a different PF/C composition to continue to win.

Lastly, in terms of player-type comparisons (not to say attitudes although I think MJ and Magic themselves could be quite douchey in their playing days) I liken Kobe to MJ and LeBron to Magic. I never get the LeBron to MJ comparisons...

 

[billmac91]

It'd be interesting to go back and see if the Celtics drew this much animosity in 2007 when they put together their "Big Three". Granted, that was done through trading, but it was the same idea.

It still isn't apples to apples though. None of those players were considered top 3 players in the game at that time.

LeBron, the best player in the game, formed an AAU squad in Miami with the third best player in the game, and a top 10 player at the time.

It was the equivalent of Jordan teaming up with Magic, Charles Barkely, or Larry Bird. The Boston "Big 3" was the equivalent of Chris Mullin, Scottie Pippen, and Karl Malone getting together. Just not the same....

 

[billmac91]

Isn't the argument more about how championship teams are constructed and that LeBron's team is constructed in a fundamentally different way than Chicago's? The idea of the "Big Three" in this era started with the Boston Celtics getting Garnett and Allen to team with Pierce. Before that though (in this immediate era), the Lakers and the Mavericks in the 00's had long attempted to acquire boatloads of talent to win titles as opposed to a bit more 'organically' grown teams like the Pistons and the Spurs. What does that matter?

What I find interesting is the narrative specific to Chris Bosh being part of the Big Three, being the NBA's premier PF in 2009 (the year before his free agency), and generally being a great player. Bosh has never really been a premier PF (at least in the typical PF definition) but he played really well in Toronto, similar to Shawn Marion playing great in Phoenix for so many years. Quietly accumulate stats on inferior teams, get attention, and prior to a trade or free agent year you'll be lauded by the media. Bosh is a really good player, great in certain aspects, but the things he is great at are not really consistent with a typical PF. I don't think Bosh has been a very valuable addition to the Heat's Big Three like Garnett was to the Celtics or like Duncan is to the Spurs. He's a top 10 (former top 5) NBA PF that does some good/great things, but not in the paint. I think that ESPN and other major NBA media created the narrative that Bosh is greater than he really is to make the idea of Wade/LeBron/Bosh signing together much more 'sexy'.

I clarify my thoughts on Bosh to just bring context to "The Decision" and how if we look at the talent levels between the 90's Bulls and the Heat (which is retarded but people want to make MJ to LeBron comparisons) we see similar levels of talent on both sides. The 91-93 Bulls have Horace Grant (a top-10 NBA PF and very talented), BJ Armstrong (a world-class 3-pt shooter in his era), Bill Worthington (a stereotypical NBA center), John Paxson (a good/great outside shooter), and a young Scott Williams (a tremendous off the bench F/C) to go with Jordan and Pippin. The 95-97 Bulls have Dennis Rodman (a world-class PF that worked great in the paint), Luc Longley (stereotypical NBA center), Ron Harper (great all-around player), Toni Kukoc (a great all-around player and scorer), Steve Kerr (great outside shooter) and a young Jason Caffey (solid bench PF).

I think these compare similarly to the talent levels of the recent Miami Heat in team composition. Ray Allen at this point in his career is a world-class jump shooter that plays the role of Kerr/Armstrong/Paxson, while Battier is somewhat of a tweener like Kukoc (admittedly I think Kukoc was much better at that point for the Bulls than Battier is for this Miami Heat team). The Bulls also had Phil Jackson... the greatest NBA coach in league history. But anyone that looks at the Bulls of the 90's and sees Jordan, maybe Pippin and that's it is fooling themselves and only looking back at the fondness of Jordan memories. Those teams had a ton of talent and were very well composed.

I think the differences I see are that Chris Bosh's talents do not compare to the player types of Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman (dominant inside presence) to facilitate increased 'chemistry' for LeBron and Wade like Grant/Rodman did for Pippin and Jordan. This is the fault of the Heat's management decision to sign the Big Three with little regards to on the floor lineups. They have won so far, but I don't anticipate them to maintain success with the aging Wade and the 'soft' Bosh. They will have to find a different PF/C composition to continue to win.

Lastly, in terms of player-type comparisons (not to say attitudes although I think MJ and Magic themselves could be quite douchey in their playing days) I liken Kobe to MJ and LeBron to Magic. I never get the LeBron to MJ comparisons...

Bosh was awful this playoffs, no doubt, but look at LeBron and D-Wades +/- togther throughout the playoffs. Beyond atrocious.

I think the thing you can conclude form the 2013 playoffs is that LeBron is good enough to carry a franchise to a title. While D-Wade flashed at times, and had a good game 7, he and LeBron were not a good tandem together. Ray Allen was a much better fit with LeBron and the +/- proves that out.

But aside from the analysis you provided above, which I generally agree with, the argument stems from the actual decision to go join another superstars team. MJ, Magic, and Larry just would not have done it. They've even stated it. For LeBron to leave a team where he won multiple MVP's to go play in the third best players in the league city, was cowardly and mentally soft. You can't really argue that...they took all competiveness out of the Eastern Conference and wanted it to be "easy". Those aren't my words, those are LeBrons. "Not one, not two, not three......man, this is going to be easy."

 

[Bucky32]

Bosh was awful this playoffs, no doubt, but look at LeBron and D-Wades +/- togther throughout the playoffs. Beyond atrocious.

I think the thing you can conclude form the 2013 playoffs is that LeBron is good enough to carry a franchise to a title. While D-Wade flashed at times, and had a good game 7, he and LeBron were not a good tandem together. Ray Allen was a much better fit with LeBron and the +/- proves that out.

But aside from the analysis you provided above, which I generally agree with, the argument stems from the actual decision to go join another superstars team. MJ, Magic, and Larry just would not have done it. They've even stated it. For LeBron to leave a team where he won multiple MVP's to go play in the third best players in the league city, was cowardly and mentally soft. You can't really argue that...they took all competiveness out of the Eastern Conference and wanted it to be "easy". Those aren't my words, those are LeBrons. "Not one, not two, not three......man, this is going to be easy."

This, which is why I think LeBron now has the option to go wherever he wants whenever he decides to leave Miami (which he will - no way is he staying on an aging team that is headed for salary cap implosion). His reasoning for going to Miami was basically:

1. Team up with Wade and Bosh to win that first title
2. Expand his brand in a global city

He's got both of those out of the way now. While I still see him going to somewhere like New York or LA next, I wouldn't entirely rule out a return to Cleveland for reasons stated above.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

Isn't the argument more about how championship teams are constructed and that LeBron's team is constructed in a fundamentally different way than Chicago's? The idea of the "Big Three" in this era started with the Boston Celtics getting Garnett and Allen to team with Pierce. Before that though (in this immediate era), the Lakers and the Mavericks in the 00's had long attempted to acquire boatloads of talent to win titles as opposed to a bit more 'organically' grown teams like the Pistons and the Spurs. What does that matter?

What I find interesting is the narrative specific to Chris Bosh being part of the Big Three, being the NBA's premier PF in 2009 (the year before his free agency), and generally being a great player. Bosh has never really been a premier PF (at least in the typical PF definition) but he played really well in Toronto, similar to Shawn Marion playing great in Phoenix for so many years. Quietly accumulate stats on inferior teams, get attention, and prior to a trade or free agent year you'll be lauded by the media. Bosh is a really good player, great in certain aspects, but the things he is great at are not really consistent with a typical PF. I don't think Bosh has been a very valuable addition to the Heat's Big Three like Garnett was to the Celtics or like Duncan is to the Spurs. He's a top 10 (former top 5) NBA PF that does some good/great things, but not in the paint. I think that ESPN and other major NBA media created the narrative that Bosh is greater than he really is to make the idea of Wade/LeBron/Bosh signing together much more 'sexy'.

I clarify my thoughts on Bosh to just bring context to "The Decision" and how if we look at the talent levels between the 90's Bulls and the Heat (which is retarded but people want to make MJ to LeBron comparisons) we see similar levels of talent on both sides. The 91-93 Bulls have Horace Grant (a top-10 NBA PF and very talented), BJ Armstrong (a world-class 3-pt shooter in his era), Bill Worthington (a stereotypical NBA center), John Paxson (a good/great outside shooter), and a young Scott Williams (a tremendous off the bench F/C) to go with Jordan and Pippin. The 95-97 Bulls have Dennis Rodman (a world-class PF that worked great in the paint), Luc Longley (stereotypical NBA center), Ron Harper (great all-around player), Toni Kukoc (a great all-around player and scorer), Steve Kerr (great outside shooter) and a young Jason Caffey (solid bench PF).

I think these compare similarly to the talent levels of the recent Miami Heat in team composition. Ray Allen at this point in his career is a world-class jump shooter that plays the role of Kerr/Armstrong/Paxson, while Battier is somewhat of a tweener like Kukoc (admittedly I think Kukoc was much better at that point for the Bulls than Battier is for this Miami Heat team). The Bulls also had Phil Jackson... the greatest NBA coach in league history. But anyone that looks at the Bulls of the 90's and sees Jordan, maybe Pippin and that's it is fooling themselves and only looking back at the fondness of Jordan memories. Those teams had a ton of talent and were very well composed.

I think the differences I see are that Chris Bosh's talents do not compare to the player types of Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman (dominant inside presence) to facilitate increased 'chemistry' for LeBron and Wade like Grant/Rodman did for Pippin and Jordan. This is the fault of the Heat's management decision to sign the Big Three with little regards to on the floor lineups. They have won so far, but I don't anticipate them to maintain success with the aging Wade and the 'soft' Bosh. They will have to find a different PF/C composition to continue to win.

Lastly, in terms of player-type comparisons (not to say attitudes although I think MJ and Magic themselves could be quite douchey in their playing days) I liken Kobe to MJ and LeBron to Magic. I never get the LeBron to MJ comparisons...

Absolutely. It's about how they teamed up. I didn't like it when the Celtics did it either. I didn't like it when Karl Malone and Gary Payton joined the Lakers in search of their rings, and I didn't like it when Ray Bourque did it outside of Boston. But Lebron took it to a new level with Wade and Bosh. That move, more than how he actually plays basketball, is why he should never be in the same conversation as Jordan. I hated Kobe for all those years, but your comparison in terms of their attitudes is dead on. Kobe & MJ would beat the shit out of you in practice if you weren't doing what would help the team. I picture a Lebron/Wade/Bosh practice session as 2 hours of lobs to each other and a few games of horse.

 

[Diego-Bucks]

Bosh was awful this playoffs, no doubt, but look at LeBron and D-Wades +/- togther throughout the playoffs. Beyond atrocious.

I think the thing you can conclude form the 2013 playoffs is that LeBron is good enough to carry a franchise to a title. While D-Wade flashed at times, and had a good game 7, he and LeBron were not a good tandem together. Ray Allen was a much better fit with LeBron and the +/- proves that out.

But aside from the analysis you provided above, which I generally agree with, the argument stems from the actual decision to go join another superstars team. MJ, Magic, and Larry just would not have done it. They've even stated it. For LeBron to leave a team where he won multiple MVP's to go play in the third best players in the league city, was cowardly and mentally soft. You can't really argue that...they took all competiveness out of the Eastern Conference and wanted it to be "easy". Those aren't my words, those are LeBrons. "Not one, not two, not three......man, this is going to be easy."

LeBron's 'decision' certainly changes the narrative about placing him into historical context. He made a decision that was fundamentally different than past NBA greats. Although, it isn't unique for his era. The manner in which LeBron chose to make his decision (flamboyant, over the top, self-centered) is what makes it awful. To me (and probably most others) Duncan and Kobe are the model for winning in this era while staying put (and even then, Kobe had to tell Charlotte that he simply wouldn't play for them in the 1996 draft, effectively making a small-scale 'decision' of his own). I hope we see similar staying and winning for Kevin Durant (would love for a Durant vs. LeBron on the court rivalry to continue to grow).

Honestly though, I think star players have always had a streak of self-centered, douchey behavior that makes almost any superstar open to criticism (Duncan and Durant currently are notable exceptions). As that player's career fades, we typically weaken our resolve on how 'douchey' they were and instead focus on remembering how uniquely fun and great they were. I like LeBron because he is a great talent unique to the NBA, he isn't 'thuggy' in any real way (I personally think he respects and admires the game and often speaks intelligently for an NBA player), he works hard, and he stays out of trouble off the court. I think that, outside his self-centered behavior (which I think he's somewhat worked on over the last few years), he is an excellent role model for the NBA and for basketball. I also hate that he flops so much... but that's kind of an NBA-wide problem too.

 

[Mac]

Absolutely. It's about how they teamed up. I didn't like it when the Celtics did it either. I didn't like it when Karl Malone and Gary Payton joined the Lakers in search of their rings, and I didn't like it when Ray Bourque did it outside of Boston. But Lebron took it to a new level with Wade and Bosh. That move, more than how he actually plays basketball, is why he should never be in the same conversation as Jordan. I hated Kobe for all those years, but your comparison in terms of their attitudes is dead on. Kobe & MJ would beat the [Mark May] out of you in practice if you weren't doing what would help the team. I picture a Lebron/Wade/Bosh practice session as 2 hours of lobs to each other and a few games of whores.

FIFY

 

[billmac91]

LeBron's 'decision' certainly changes the narrative about placing him into historical context. He made a decision that was fundamentally different than past NBA greats. Although, it isn't unique for his era. The manner in which LeBron chose to make his decision (flamboyant, over the top, self-centered) is what makes it awful. To me (and probably most others) Duncan and Kobe are the model for winning in this era while staying put (and even then, Kobe had to tell Charlotte that he simply wouldn't play for them in the 1996 draft, effectively making a small-scale 'decision' of his own). I hope we see similar staying and winning for Kevin Durant (would love for a Durant vs. LeBron on the court rivalry to continue to grow).

Honestly though, I think star players have always had a streak of self-centered, douchey behavior that makes almost any superstar open to criticism (Duncan and Durant currently are notable exceptions). As that player's career fades, we typically weaken our resolve on how 'douchey' they were and instead focus on remembering how uniquely fun and great they were. I like LeBron because he is a great talent unique to the NBA, he isn't 'thuggy' in any real way (I personally think he respects and admires the game and often speaks intelligently for an NBA player), he works hard, and he stays out of trouble off the court. I think that, outside his self-centered behavior (which I think he's somewhat worked on over the last few years), he is an excellent role model for the NBA and for basketball. I also hate that he flops so much... but that's kind of an NBA-wide problem too.

The funny thing about Kobe that no one ever brings up is when he tried to force his way out of L.A. because of issues with management, his first choice was to go to the worst team in the league. Kobe tried to force his way onto the Chicago Bulls that was considered one of the worst NBA teams of all time. Analysts were literally debating whether the Bulls would be able to beat Duke in a 7 game series.

Kobe wanted to go and elevate Chicago the way Michael did. It's just such a departure from the norm the way LeBron did it. And no matter what NBA legends say publically, the don't respect it privately. It's why after this stint with Miami, LeBron still needs to right a lot of wrongs. That doesn't have to be in Cleveland necessarily, but he needs to prove he can stand on his own two feet as a man without the support, by way of talent and leadership, like he did in Miami. Can he go to another roster with all-stars? Yes. But he probably shouldn't team up with a Kevin Durant type talent if he wants any respect.