Jim Tressel (National Champion, ex-President, Youngstown State University, CFB HOF)

[matcar]

Then just stick to opinion instead of name-calling.

It isn't as if you and those on the other side of the argument are that far apart.
You claim the great defense shows JT can recognize and hire in the right kind of staff who put in the best schemes for their defensive players. Also that JT is not involved on D, because he makes a joke about it in a press conference.
The others are saying that, self-deprecating humor aside, JT is probably more involved in areas other than just QB / Offense than he lets on.

It isn't as if either of the sides here are insulting JT's manhood or acumen.

I'm taking JT at face value when he says he's not very involved in the defense. It isn't just the one quote, he's been very upfront for years that he sticks around the offensive side and those who have watched practice has stated much the same thing. If you know otherwise, then OK, but that's not what those close to the program have stated.

 

[wdg01]

Right, and I could pull up figures for several other teams that average significantly more points than we do against the same opponents. So your stats are meaningless. As I have said before, I I don't think that JT is a lousy coach either on offense, but 25 pts per game isn't what several others average. His approach is different, but there's no arguing that tOSU is frequently #1 or #2 in the B10 in total D and middle of the pack in total O. Hence the comment of curiosity which prompts you to defend him as if he's even being attached. Please...

Well I decided to look at the offensive numbers..

From 2002-2006 we averaged 28.175 Points per game in Big Ten Play...2 teams did better...scUM at 29.25 and Minnesota at 28.675.

If you look from 2005 till now (2 1/2 seasons)...we have by far the most points per game in conference play with 35.9 ppg (we are 2nd this year with 33.75 ppg). The closest team to us over that timespan is Wisconsin at 28.9...7 points away. I don't know how anyone is going to complain about our offense. JT is by far a better offensive coach then he gets credit for.
:osu:

 

[matcar]

Well I decided to look at the offensive numbers..

From 2002-2006 we averaged 28.175 Points per game in Big Ten Play...2 teams did better...scUM at 29.25 and Minnesota at 28.675.

If you look from 2005 till now (2 1/2 seasons)...we have by far the most points per game in conference play with 35.9 ppg (we are leading this year with 33.75 ppg). The closest team to us over that timespan is Wisconsin at 28.9...7 points away. I don't know how anyone is going to complain about our offense. JT is by far a better offensive coach then he gets credit for.
:osu:

First, no one is "complaining" about the offense, and that's what so absurd about this "argument". The only thing noted is that defense has been our strong suit under JT (that's no an indictment of the offense, just a truism.)

Next, this is what I posted to mook in a PM and was trying to avoid posting here. It shows the trend (broken in 2006, but back in 2007) where we are always near the top of the conference in total D, but mid-pack in total Offense. Once again, this is not an indictment of the offense...just a look at where our relative strength lies.

I don't have access to 2002 or 2003 at the moment, but they are similar to 2004, 2005, & 2007.

2004
Scoring offense rank: 7 Scoring defense rank: 5
Total offense rank: 8 Total defense rank: 4

2005
Scoring offense rank: 5 Scoring defense rank: 1
Total offense rank: 6 Total defense rank: 1

2006
Scoring offense rank: 1 Scoring defense rank: 2
Total offense rank: 2 Total defense rank: 3
2007
Scoring offense rank: 4 Scoring defense rank: 1
Total offense rank: 6 Total defense rank: 1

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

Most shockingly, JT is the only coach since Woody to maintain the offensive scoring average against Michigan in the last game of the year, though the defense is apt to surrender a TD over their average. Both Earle Bruce's and John Cooper's teams were ~11.5 points worse against Michigan on offense versus their career averages while at OSU.

I was actually thinking somewhat along this lines earlier this morning, more specifically on how consistent we've been at the Pig House under Tressel: 26 points (2001), 21 points (2003), and 25 points (2005) for an average of exactly 24 points per game there. For Bruce and Cooper:

Bruce: 18 (1979), 14 (1981), 21 (1983), 17 (1985), 23 (1987) for an average of 18.6 points per game
Cooper: 18 (1989), 3 (1991), 0 (1993), 23 (1995), 14 (1997), 17 (1999) for an average of 12.5 points per game

 

[wdg01]

I guess you can look at it 2 ways...

In conference games...
2002 Scoring offense rank: 9
2003 Scoring offense rank: 7
2004 Scoring offense rank: 6
2005 Scoring offense rank: 2 (Penn St. was first)
2006 Scoring offense rank: 1
2007 Scoring offense rank: 2 (through 4 games, scUM St is currently first)

I missed scUM St. in my earlier post...they are the only ones averaging more ppg in Big 10 play than we are this year.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

I guess you can look at it 2 ways...

In conference games...
2002 Scoring offense rank: 9
2003 Scoring offense rank: 7
2004 Scoring offense rank: 6
2005 Scoring offense rank: 2 (Penn St. was first)
2006 Scoring offense rank: 1
2007 Scoring offense rank: 2 (through 4 games, scUM St is currently first)

I missed scUM St. in my earlier post...they are the only ones averaging more ppg in Big 10 play than we are this year.

Is that including the two defensive TDs they got Saturday?

 

[wdg01]

Is that including the two defensive TDs they got Saturday?

That is including everything...just easier that way since i dont know all the nonoffensive touchdowns for each team over the years...if you take way those 14 points and 7 points from their Indiana game(I think they got a defensive score there too)...you would have to take away at 7 points from us for the defensive touchdown earlier this season. We would be #1 in that case.

 

[matcar]

I guess you can look at it 2 ways...

In conference games...
2002 Scoring offense rank: 9
2003 Scoring offense rank: 7
2004 Scoring offense rank: 6
2005 Scoring offense rank: 2 (Penn St. was first)
2006 Scoring offense rank: 1
2007 Scoring offense rank: 2 (through 4 games, scUM St is currently first)

I missed scUM St. in my earlier post...they are the only ones averaging more ppg in Big 10 play than we are this year.

That's interesting to look at as well. That the improvement is showing as JT is getting "his" type of players...especially on the line. I hadn't seen that statistic before.

 

[muffler dragon]

Right, and I could pull up figures for several other teams that average significantly more points than we do against the same opponents.

Feel free to take the time. I respect effort. Vacuous pontification is another thing which brings me to:

So your stats are meaningless.

Actually, my stats provide SUBSTANTIATION to my POV. Something you've yet to do.

As I have said before, I I don't think that JT is a lousy coach either on offense, but 25 pts per game isn't what several others average.

Unsubstantiated.

His approach is different, but there's no arguing that tOSU is frequently #1 or #2 in the B10 in total D and middle of the pack in total O.

Unsubstantiated.

Hence the comment of curiosity which prompts you to defend him as if he's even being attached. Please...

I don't think that tOSU offense is middle of the pack nor is it a "weak point" in this team (as you have alluded to over and over again WITHOUT SUBSTANTIATION.

Here's the deal: I don't mind having cordial disagreements with people who present INFORMED AND SUBSTANTIATED opinions/POVs. But this flippant, fallacy-laden junk you spew is ridiculous.

Mods, please split this crap off. I wish I'd never posted so fanboys wouldn't get upset.

Personally, if you don't post again, then I won't shed a tear.

 

[BengalsAndBucks]

JT is a great coach. I cannot think of any other man who I would want coaching the Buckeyes. The class he shows, the values he represents, and the team he puts on the field week after week after week show that. Maybe he really calls every defensive play we run, and maybe he doesn't know the difference between a 4-3 and a 3-4. I dont really care. I know that every week that we have him as our coach, we have a chance to win the game, and that every year that we have him as our coach, we could make it to the NC. Thats all I want in a coach.

 

[matcar]

Feel free to take the time. I respect effort. Vacuous pontification is another thing which brings me to:



Actually, my stats provide SUBSTANTIATION to my POV. Something you've yet to do.



Unsubstantiated.



Unsubstantiated.



I don't think that tOSU offense is middle of the pack nor is it a "weak point" in this team (as you have alluded to over and over again WITHOUT SUBSTANTIATION.

Here's the deal: I don't mind having cordial disagreements with people who present INFORMED AND SUBSTANTIATED opinions/POVs. But this flippant, fallacy-laden junk you spew is ridiculous.



Personally, if you don't post again, then I won't shed a tear.

I did substantiate my claim when I posted the team offense and defense statistics and our rating. Perhaps you missed it while you were spewing more fanboy posts. Read the stats regarding from 2004-2007 and you'll see what I was referring to. Or don't, and live in ignorance. Your choice. The facts of that post bear out EXACTLY my original premise. Namely, that our defense is our relative strength while JT is primarily focused on the offense. Nowhere in there is there an assisination of JT as an offensive mind or derogitory comments about the offense. Merely that the D is our RELATIVE strength.

 

[muffler dragon]

I did substantiate my claim when I posted the team offense and defense statistics and our rating.

This was the first post you made about this topic:

I love JT as much as anybody, but I do find some irony that JT is 1) heavily involved in QB operations/development and 2) is almost as heavily involved in the offensive gameplan. He leaves the defensive side to Heacock. And when you look at tOSU's success during Tressel's tenure, the strong points of the team have been the defense and special teams, NOT the offense (with the exception of 2006). I'll grant you that JTs style of offense "helps" the defense to a degree, but still, the strength is usually the side he's NOT heavily involved in. Curious no?

I stated back then and I re-state that this is NOT curious. I should have included at that point in time that your premise is horse-shit. Averaging over 25 points a game IS a strong point of this OSU team, and averaging over 25 points a game does MORE than help the defense "to a degree".

Perhaps you missed it while you were spewing more fanboy posts.

You're laughable (at best).

Read the stats regarding from 2004-2007 and you'll see what I was referring to.

Here's the pertinent parts of your post:

First, no one is "complaining" about the offense, and that's what so absurd about this "argument". The only thing noted is that defense has been our strong suit under JT (that's no an indictment of the offense, just a truism.)

Your own words in post #651 counter the position you're trying to take now. You reduced the offense to being a non-factor with regards to the defense in your first post. Now, you're back-tracking, because you've been shown your error. But instead of manning-up and admitting you're wrong, you decide to continue to fling the fallacies.

As for your data:

2004
Scoring offense rank: 7 Scoring defense rank: 5
Total offense rank: 8 Total defense rank: 4

2005
Scoring offense rank: 5 Scoring defense rank: 1
Total offense rank: 6 Total defense rank: 1

2006
Scoring offense rank: 1 Scoring defense rank: 2
Total offense rank: 2 Total defense rank: 3
2007
Scoring offense rank: 4 Scoring defense rank: 1
Total offense rank: 6 Total defense rank: 1

Scoring offense rank averages at 4.25 in the four years you have above. This places the offense in the top 40%. Even from your own data, one can see that the Offense does more than to "help the defense to a degree".

Or don't, and live in ignorance. Your choice. The facts of that post bear out EXACTLY my original premise. Namely, that our defense is our relative strength while JT is primarily focused on the offense. Nowhere in there is there an assisination of JT as an offensive mind or derogitory comments about the offense. Merely that the D is our RELATIVE strength.

I believe that your (original) position has ONCE AGAIN been shown to be lacking.

Here's the deal: feel free to have the last word. You seem like the sort that needs to have that for some sort of "face saving value". You'll get no more responses from me, and don't send me any more ranting PMs.

 

[BB73]

I did substantiate my claim when I posted the team offense and defense statistics and our rating. Perhaps you missed it while you were spewing more fanboy posts.

You guys need to agree to disagree on this, and just move on. This urination contest has provided enough pollution in this thread.

The reason I didn't split off this stuff earlier (when you asked for it in the thread) is that folks need to back up their comments.

Also, I seriously hope I never see you post the word 'fanboy' to describe another poster again. Resorting to that type of stuff rapidly deteriorates the level of discussion.

 

[muffler dragon]

You guys need to agree to disagree on this, and just move on. This urination contest has provided enough pollution in this thread.

The reason I didn't split off this stuff earlier (when you asked for it in the thread) is that folks need to back up their comments.

BB:

My apologies for delving into said contest. Anyway... please feel free to remove my posts if you find it necessary. I'm done with that topic.

 

[matcar]

This was the first post you made about this topic:



I stated back then and I re-state that this is NOT curious. I should have included at that point in time that your premise is horse-shit. Averaging over 25 points a game IS a strong point of this OSU team, and averaging over 25 points a game does MORE than help the defense "to a degree".



You're laughable (at best).



Here's the pertinent parts of your post:



Your own words in post #651 counter the position you're trying to take now. You reduced the offense to being a non-factor with regards to the defense in your first post. Now, you're back-tracking, because you've been shown your error. But instead of manning-up and admitting you're wrong, you decide to continue to fling the fallacies.

As for your data:



Scoring offense rank averages at 4.25 in the four years you have above. This places the offense in the top 40%. Even from your own data, one can see that the Offense does more than to "help the defense to a degree".



I believe that your (original) position has ONCE AGAIN been shown to be lacking.

Here's the deal: feel free to have the last word. You seem like the sort that needs to have that for some sort of "face saving value". You'll get no more responses from me, and don't send me any more ranting PMs.

The last word is this: if the defensive statistics suggest we are the top in the conference, and the offensive statistics are significantly lower (not bad, just lower), then that makes it obvious that the defense is the relative strength of the tOSU teams since 2001. You can state all you want that 25 points per game is good (and I would agree), and we could agree that JT has raised the overall standard at tOSU. But, that doesn't change the simple fact that the defense, has, on balance been the strength of our teams. Anyone watching 2001-2007 would be hard pressed to disagree with the obvious exception of last year.

I found that curious in light of JTs obvious affinity for the offensive side of the ball, as did the PMs I received about it. And I would have enjoyed some discussion about the potential reasons for that, but ultimately ended up in a silly p-match because this obvious truth had to be disputed under the notion that I was attacking JT or the coaching staff or that I was suggesting that the offense was poor. That was never implied, but somehow the conversation was steered there. And you'll note that in other posts I actually engaged in some interesting discussion about this and some nuances that are seen when looking at conference games. There was nothing for me to "man-up" over because my statement from the very beginning is every bit as valid and the statistics I provided bear that out.