Jim Bollman (Stay calm and run Dave)

[ant80]

If you were an SEC fan, you'd be treading a McNeiling. I'm really not going to get into a discussion about conference strength that turns into something 20 pages long. All I'll say is this:

-The conference isn't as bad as you think.
-Saying our success is pretty much solely because of the conference we play in is pure horseshit.

I think we would've lost at least 3 regular season games in both 2007 and 2008 had we played in the SEC. And wouldn't have sniffed a BCS bowl either season. And would've won the bowl game as a result both those years.

Not saying our success is attributable only to the weakness of the Big10, but it is impossible, IMO, to deny that it played some part.

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

Number of All B10 offensive linemen (1st and 2nd team selected by the conference coaches) produced by each program since '04:

Michigan (6 players, combined for 11 selections)
Adam Kraus ('07, '06)
Jake Long ('07, '06, '04)
Mark Bihl ('06)
Matt Lentz ('05, '04)
Adam Stenavich ('05, '04)
David Baas ('04)

Ohio State (6 players/ 7 selections)
Alex Boone ('08, '07)
Kirk Barton ('07)
Doug Datish ('06)
TJ Downing ('06)
Rob Sims ('05)
Nick Mangold ('05)

Penn State (5 players/ 8 selections)
AQ Shipley ('08, '07)
Rich Ohrnberger ('08, '07)
Gerald Cadogan ('08)
Stefen Wisniewski ('08)
Levi Brown ('06, '05)

Iowa (5 players/ 5 selections)
Seth Olsen ('08)
Rob Bruggeman ('08)
Bryan Bulaga ('08)
Mike Jones ('06)
Marshal Yanda ('06)

Wisconsin (4 players/ 6 selections)
Kraig Urbik ('08, '07)
Joe Thomas ('06, '05)
Dan Buenning ('04)
Jonathan Clinkscale ('04)

Minnesota (3 players/ 5 selections)
Greg Eslinger ('05, '04)
Mark Setterstrom ('05, 04)
Rian Melander ('04)

Illinois (3 players/ 4 selections)
Xavier Fulton ('08, '07)
Martin O'Donnell ('07)
Ryan McDonald ('07)

Purdue (2 players/ 2 selections)
Mike Otto ('06)
Jordan Grimes ('05)

Michigan State (2 players/ 2 selections)
Kyle Cook ('06)
Sean Poole ('04)

Northwestern (1 player/ 2 selections)
Zach Strief ('05, '04)

Indiana (0)


A couple of things stand out: in contrast to Michigan, Penn State and Wisconsin, there are not many repeat honorees for Ohio State, with just Alex Boone being a two time honoree. That could be two things: 1). OSU lineman bloom late. 2). Voters give OSU lineman the benefit of the doubt when the team is having a good season.

Penn State and Iowa are dominating the last couple of years. Michigan has leveled off dramatically since their last great line left in '05.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

1 guy has been recruited, developed and turned into something beyond a journeyman NFL OL under the current regime that I can recall and that's Mangold. Compared to the numbers put in the NFL by the other positions on the same team that's very low. Why does the position with the largest number of players on the team have a low success rate in terms of NFL talent production?

I can't be the only one who sees this and asks the question. Why do we put so many WR's, LB's, DB's in the NFL and only one or two OL?

So, now NFL success is the standard by which to judge Bollman? Okay....

 

[Jaxbuck]

So, now NFL success is the standard by which to judge Bollman? Okay....

I'm pretty sure I said as compared to what the rest of the team produces but let me check.

I can't be the only one who sees this and asks the question. Why do we put so many WR's, LB's, DB's in the NFL and only one or two OL?

Yep.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

I'm pretty sure I said as compared to what the rest of the team produces but let me check.

Before you accuse me of missing a point, just make sure that you don't miss one of your own, namely what in the hell does NFL success have to do with Bollman's performance at Ohio State? If that's your measuring stick, then you'd better blame Luke Fickell for Hawk and Carpenter being NFL busts.

Bollman has taken a bunch of mediocre talents and turned them into All Big Ten and All American performers. Were some of those guys overrated? Were some of those selections unjustified? Maybe, but the fact remains that Bollman got far more production out of guys like Datish, Downing, Barton, Sims, and Stepanovich than I ever thought possible. And yes, he couldn't get that kind of production out of Person, Rehring, Cordle, Mitchum, and Skinner ... but can you really blame him for that? Let's see what he does with some real talent - Boren, Brewster, Shugarts, Adams, et al - before rendering a final verdict.

But I can already see the counter-argument: Michigan developed Boren, Bollman had nothing to do with it; Brewster, Shugarts, and Adams were five-star prospects, so Bollman didn't need to develop them, yada, yada, yada. But of course, if one of those guys busts out, then Bollman will be entirely at fault.... And regardless of who is on the OL, Ohio State's offense still won't score nearly as many points as Oklahoma's, so we can always complain about our relative weakness on that side of the ball....

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

I don't think his point is NFL success.....getting to the NFL is supposed to be a measure of how well you played in college.

Again, I don't know how to coach an OLine or even what to look for to tell that an OLine is doing good or bad. But people who do know these things are constantly saying that our OLine is not any good. Why is that? Why does it take a MoC or Beanie to get a run game going? And why....when the line was exactly the same....would there be 0 running room for Lydell Ross or Maurice Wells? Is that on the runners?

 

[jwinslow]

LJB, I think there are excuses to be made for struggles against the good/great teams. I'm not sure there are valid excuses to be made for the outings like Akron, Ohio or even Navy. Now hopefully, by next week (or november) we'll look back on those performances as growing pains en route to where they end up.

 

[lvbuckeye]

Would you rather have the defense be OSU's biggest weakness? I'll take a great defense any day, and take my chances with a mediocre but opportunistic offense that doesn't make many mistakes.

since when is it an either/or proposition?


you are allowed to have a good defense AND a good offense.

 

[Buckskin86]

Coach Bollman 6:12 mark

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBmFRvBG7JY]YouTube - OSU Coordinators Jim Heacock and Jim Bollman Discuss USC[/ame]

 

[matcar]

LJB, I think there are excuses to be made for struggles against the good/great teams. I'm not sure there are valid excuses to be made for the outings like Akron, Ohio or even Navy. Now hopefully, by next week (or november) we'll look back on those performances as growing pains en route to where they end up.

I tend to agree. And as I have stated earlier in this thread, I'm not sure who "owns" the problem, but after 8+ years, I think we have enough time in the bank to make an assessment and it seems pretty clear that defense has most often carried the team, even against lesser competition (Akron, SJSU, etc). I can think of only 1 year where the offense hid the weaknesses that existed on defense instead of the opposite. You'd think that would be a move even (50/50) proposition.

 

[ysubuck]

I don't think his point is NFL success.....getting to the NFL is supposed to be a measure of how well you played in college.

Again, I don't know how to coach an OLine or even what to look for to tell that an OLine is doing good or bad. But people who do know these things are constantly saying that our OLine is not any good. Why is that? Why does it take a MoC or Beanie to get a run game going? And why....when the line was exactly the same....would there be 0 running room for Lydell Ross or Maurice Wells? Is that on the runners?

This has been my point for the last 8 years or so. If it takes an other worldly (ok, so maybe that's a stretch) talent like Clarett or Beanie to have a successful running game then we are going to be disappointed more often than not.

Look at Ohio U last season and even the Northwestern game last season. N'Western was kicking the O lines ass until Beanie broke that long one. And make no mistake that run was ALL Beanie Wells. He got hit 3 yards in the backfield, kept his feet and found a crease.

Hopefully all of the O line problems of the last few years get ironed out this week.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Before you accuse me of missing a point, just make sure that you don't miss one of your own, namely what in the hell does NFL success have to do with Bollman's performance at Ohio State?

I don't know how to make it any clearer. You seem to be intentionally misunderstanding me to drag this out. Other units on the same team have produced more NFL draft picks than the OL has in spite of having a smaller number of overall players. Its not hard to look at that and ask the question "Why don't we produce the same level of talent at OL that we do elsewhere?"

Bollman has taken a bunch of mediocre talents and turned them into All Big Ten and All American performers. Were some of those guys overrated? Were some of those selections unjustified? Maybe, but the fact remains that Bollman got far more production out of guys like Datish, Downing, Barton, Sims, and Stepanovich than I ever thought possible. And yes, he couldn't get that kind of production out of Person, Rehring, Cordle, Mitchum, and Skinner ... but can you really blame him for that? Let's see what he does with some real talent - Boren, Brewster, Shugarts, Adams, et al - before rendering a final verdict.

Why do we just now have "real talent", as you put it, after 8 years? Is there no accountability for talent evaluation and recruiting? Who brought in all that mediocre talent he "coached up"?

Out of one side of your mouth you are admitting exactly what I have been saying...there has been a lack of talent in general along the OL. Then out of the other side you want to attack me for using NFL draft picks to illustrate the same point. You may not like the criteria I use as an illustration but you are agreeing with the main premise.

But I can already see the counter-argument: Michigan developed Boren, Bollman had nothing to do with it; Brewster, Shugarts, and Adams were five-star prospects, so Bollman didn't need to develop them, yada, yada, yada. But of course, if one of those guys busts out, then Bollman will be entirely at fault....

No. Your main tactic is to create then defeat arguments I never made. I'll respond to arguments about things I actually said, not things you invented.

And regardless of who is on the OL, Ohio State's offense still won't score nearly as many points as Oklahoma's, so we can always complain about our relative weakness on that side of the ball....

Again constructing an argument I never made to defeat it. How about just once you don't twist things around, quote half of what I said or put words in my mouth? But then that pretty much empties your play book so I won't hold my breath.

Go look at the USC preview. DBB does an excellent job of pointing out the exact same thing I have been saying. The offense has been the weakest part of this team for the past 8 years and compared to the rest of the CFB elite its not even close.

There is absolutely no reason we can't produce the same type of talent and have the same type of success on offense as we do on defense. None. Bad offense doesn't equal winning football and you don't have to be bad on defense to be good on offense.

 

[BayBuck]

There is absolutely no reason we can't produce the same type of talent and have the same type of success on offense as we do on defense. None. Bad offense doesn't equal winning football and you don't have to be bad on defense to be good on offense.

You extrapolate your argument to ridiculous lengths to make a point, and the exagerration dilutes the strength of the argument. Do we really not "produce the same type of talent ... on offense as we do on defense"? We have put numerous WRs, TBs, a TE and QB here and there, and probably as many OLs as DLs into the NFL under Tressel. That is producing talent, and at pretty close to the same rate as our tremendous defenses have.

As for the "same type of success on offense", do the different sides of the ball get different W/L results? What you are taking issue with is the overall Tressel philosophy that great defense is the backbone of a winning program, and he's simply not prone to shock and awe his opponents with big stats and blowouts.

Just because the defense is consistently one of the best in the nation and makes the offense look relatively pedestrian in comparison, or because the offense doesn't match the pure numbers of the nation's biggest producers, does not mean OSU has a "bad offense". That characterization is an exagerration and an overly-emotional response that seems to echo the simplistic analysis we hear during the national media's highlight-reel rundowns.

 

[Best Buckeye]

Any way we can close this danged negative thread until after the SC game or maybe 2 years after Bollman leaves whenever that may be?

 

[ochre]

I don't know how to make it any clearer. You seem to be intentionally misunderstanding me to drag this out. Other units on the same team have produced more NFL draft picks than the OL has in spite of having a smaller number of overall players. Its not hard to look at that and ask the question "Why don't we produce the same level of talent at OL that we do elsewhere?"

I'm not sure that is an entirely accurate way to put it. I generally agree with what you are saying. The problem I have with what you say here is that you are taking the quantity of offensive line positions to mean there are "more" players. I think the opposite, from a prospect/scholarship player perspective, is quite likely the truth.

I think the problem might be related to the "speed, big speed, big" recruiting paradigm and the proportions of each that are pursued. The primary positions for Bigs are the OL and the interior DL. All in all, I think, those are the two areas that have been regularly mediocre. That probably comes from, to some degree, the special teams emphasis, as bigs, generally, aren't special teamers.

If they can get a couple of more Miller types (they've had a couple of eventual DTs that fit this too) that can transition, as big speeds, to these traditional big positions, maybe this is moot.

But again, from the perspective of numbers, I don't think one can say the volume of OL recruits signed matches, say, the DB quantity.