Jim Bollman (Stay calm and run Dave)

[matcar]

Look, the main reason I have posted in these threads about the Oline and Coach Bollman is because I have a world of faith in them. They know more than anyone that they can play better. The toughest part of being a Buckeye is that we must be the best year in and year out, it is expected.

If you feel like you are frustrated and you feel like our guys arent performing, that is your opinion. You are entitled to that. I have expressed mine. I am entitled to that as well. You can come out and "call BS" you can call me a "homer" and you can say our stuff is "unacceptable." Come at me with statistics (ie. how many Olinemen from other top programs have been drafted the past few years), demanding "answers" when you don't know the first thing about OLine play is unrealistic. Looking back, I seriously doubt our team would be consistantly in BCS games year in and year out if we didn't have Coach Bollman and the young men who have played on our Offensive Line. You may disagree, but all of these guys are solid in MY book.

I'm not demanding answers, but I'll say this, you want stats...I think the statistics regarding our Offensive production (yards per game, points per game) etc would suggest that tOSU is nowhere near a top producer. Now, we all know that part of that is JTs gameplaning and how he approaches ball control. Having said that, I think anyone who has watched the Bucks play over the last 9 years can say that there is more to it that gameplanning. Meanwhile, the defense is routinely rated far better. There simply HAS to be some sort of reason for this.

Meanwhile, you're correct that we've put plenty of OLinemen in the the NFL recently, which frankly is only more condemning that these guys are talented enough to play in the league and yet we don't see that talent reflected on the scoreboard here at tOSU as you would expect.

Again, I don't know that Bollman is the problem, but I can see quite plainly that there IS something on the offense that ISN'T performing to the level it should. Our win/loss % is outstanding, but that doesn't negate all the unnecessary struggles and close calls that have been the calling card of this program for 9 years. To deny the obvious offensive struggles and merely point to victories against TSUN, etc is to deny the prospect of ever actually improving.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Come at me with statistics (ie. how many Olinemen from other top programs have been drafted the past few years), demanding "answers" when you don't know the first thing about OLine play is unrealistic.

First off no one is trying to say they know more about OL play than the coach. Thats a straw man argument. The consistent poor performance of the offense is what is in question. Non coaching outsiders can easily look at numbers and see this is the case.

You really don't want to try and go to stats to defend the offense but since you asked I'll oblige.

Yards per play by season (2004-2008) for USC, Texas, Florida and OSU.

USC
2004: 6.3
2005: 7.5
2006: 5.9
2007: 5.8
2008: 6.6
Average: 6.42

Texas
2004: 6.3
2005: 7.1
2006: 6.0
2007: 6.2
2008: 6.5
Average: 6.42

Florida
2004: 6.2
2005: 5.3
2006: 6.3
2007: 7.0
2008: 7.1
Average: 6.38

OSU
2004: 5.1
2005: 6.3
2006: 6.1
2007: 5.8
2008: 5.5
Average: 5.76

Clear cut. Year in and year out our offense under performs vs the schools we should be using as the benchmark. Keep in mind this snapshot captures the most prolific offenses of the Tressel era and neither 2005 or 2006 were even #1 for a single year compared to our "peers".

As far as the draft question goes I'm not even going to waste my time looking it up. In 8 years they have recruited, developed and placed 1 good NFL lineman and that was Nick Mangold. There are maybe 4-5 others at best who were either late round picks or UDFA's but regardless they are journeymen level NFL players at best.

There is no way anyone can objectively look at the overall number of NFL players this program has produced starting with the 2002 recruiting class, notice that only 1 of them was an OL and not see the disparity.

Looking back, I seriously doubt our team would be consistantly in BCS games year in and year out if we didn't have Coach Bollman and the young men who have played on our Offensive Line. You may disagree, but all of these guys are solid in MY book.

So you think having better offensive linemen and a more productive offense these past 8 years would have resulted in less overall team success? That fails the logic test in MY book.

 

[NightmaresDad]

So you think having better offensive linemen and a more productive offense these past 8 years would have resulted in less overall team success? That fails the logic test in MY book.

Then you need a new logic book.
What he said was that having a different OL coach than Bollman would not have produced better, or even as good of, results, in his opinion.

And comparing our numbers to teams with whom we share no common opponents is not as meaningful as comparing our numbers with other B10 schools. It also fails to account for differing styles of play and playcalling of the teams compared.

i am glad, however, that we are getting some new coaching blood into the system this year.

 

[BrutusBobcat]

There are a few very quantifiable ways to evaluate OL performance, if not always purely. I'd suggest going through and evaluating the following statistics:

Conversion percentage on 3rd and 2 or less, or 4th and two or less
Same conversion percentage inside the red zone
Number of false start penalties on down linemen
Number of holding penalties on down linemen
Sacks allowed per game
Hurries per game
Blocked kicks allowed
Average playing minutes for starters
Number of injuries in two deep per season
Average Rivals/Scout star rating per position
Number of players to make first, second or third team all B10 per season

I would look at those numbers broken down in the following ways:

Against mid major OOC opponents
Against sub .500 BCS conference opponents
Against to 25 opponents
Against top 5 opponents and/or in "marquee" games (bowls, etc.)

What that should give us is a rough metric of performance and player development. It doesn't take into account the issues created by underperformance at a particular position, like LT, but it does give us a way to look season-by-season at how the entire OL development system is or isn't making progress, from recruiting, to coaching, to training, to scheme.

If I get some time, I'll work out a scoring system using those metrics to give a year-by-year "OL Efficiency" number, similar to a QB rating. It won't be perfect, but perhaps it will advance the discussion in a more analytical way.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Then you need a new logic book.
What he said was that having a different OL coach than Bollman would not have produced better, or even as good of, results, in his opinion.

I would offer that anyone who thinks the offensive production and talent development we've gotten these past 8 years is the best a school like OSU can do is more in need of a trip to the book store than I.

And comparing our numbers to teams with whom we share no common opponents is not as meaningful as comparing our numbers with other B10 schools. It also fails to account for differing styles of play and playcalling of the teams compared.

That's why I used an efficiency rating like yards per play. Counting stats like total points or yards are more susceptible to what you are describing. A 5 year set of data shows we clearly get less production per play than teams we should be comparing our selves to. A team runs about 800-850 plays a year so you are talking about a sample of over 20,000 plays here.

I'd be willing to bet without looking it up we haven't had the best offense even in the B10 for these years. Regardless, is anyone really going to try and argue our numbers are lower than Florida's because we play in a better conference? They get more production per play than we do playing week in and week out against much stronger competition.

 

[Jaxbuck]

There are a few very quantifiable ways to evaluate OL performance, if not always purely. I'd suggest going through and evaluating the following statistics:

Conversion percentage on 3rd and 2 or less, or 4th and two or less
Same conversion percentage inside the red zone
Number of false start penalties on down linemen
Number of holding penalties on down linemen
Sacks allowed per game
Hurries per game
Blocked kicks allowed
Average playing minutes for starters
Number of injuries in two deep per season
Average Rivals/Scout star rating per position
Number of players to make first, second or third team all B10 per season

I would look at those numbers broken down in the following ways:

Against mid major OOC opponents
Against sub .500 BCS conference opponents
Against to 25 opponents
Against top 5 opponents and/or in "marquee" games (bowls, etc.)

What that should give us is a rough metric of performance and player development. It doesn't take into account the issues created by underperformance at a particular position, like LT, but it does give us a way to look season-by-season at how the entire OL development system is or isn't making progress, from recruiting, to coaching, to training, to scheme.

If I get some time, I'll work out a scoring system using those metrics to give a year-by-year "OL Efficiency" number, similar to a QB rating. It won't be perfect, but perhaps it will advance the discussion in a more analytical way.

FWIW, football outsiders already has most of this done. I don't know the exact algorithm but they have unit by unit efficiency numbers. I don't use them because I don't know how they calculate it.

 

[strohs]

Looking back, I seriously doubt our team would be consistantly in BCS games year in and year out if we didn't have Coach Bollman and the young men who have played on our Offensive Line. You may disagree, but all of these guys are solid in MY book.

Dude we are in the Big 10, thats why we are in the BCS every year...

Defend Bollman all you want, but the fact remains that coaching is about results and the results have just not been there, period.

 

[OregonBuckeye]

Dude we are in the Big 10, thats why we are in the BCS every year...

These aren't the ESPN forums.

 

[BuckeyePride]

Dude we are in the Big 10, thats why we are in the BCS every year...

Defend Bollman all you want, but the fact remains that coaching is about results and the results have just not been there, period.

I would have to agree 100% with that. Player development is not there. we are getting 4-5 star recruits.

 

[strohs]

These aren't the ESPN forums.

Oh sorry, I guess I was just imagining the weakness of the Big Ten and its poor performance in bowl games, etc., over the last few years

 

[zincfinger]

The OL is the only thing that has held tOSU back from multiplie national championships under Tress...

I disagree. OSU was more than just decent O-line play away from winning the game against Florida. And against LSU, the O-line wasn't the problem. I think the Buckeye O-line did a pretty respectable job in that game, and if you want to single out an individual unit that came up short, it would be the interior of OSU's D-line. None of which is to say that there haven't been some notable shortcomings in OSU's O-line play over the last several years, but they're not responsible for every big game, or every national championship game, loss.

 

[OregonBuckeye]

Oh sorry, I guess I was just imagining the weakness of the Big Ten and its poor performance in bowl games, etc., over the last few years

Here you go.

ESPN.com - ESPN - ESPN Message Board Index Message Board

That argument is suitable over there. You can disparage all the accomplishments you want.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

The problem with comparing coaches is that each one has a different level of talent - both quality and quantity - with which to work. Would any of you seriously suggest that another OL coach could have turned guys like Steve Rehring, Ben Person, Kyle Mitchum, Jon Skinner, and Jim Cordle into All Americans? Conversely, don't you think that Bollman might have had a little bit more success with USC's lineman the past few seasons?

When you look at Bollman's track record, he turned guys who were not considered to be stud OL - Rob Sims, Doug Datish, T.J. Downing, and Kirk Barton - into first team All Big Ten players (and Barton was also AA), and of course he is responsible for the development of Nick Mangold, who was a first team All American, a first round draft pick, and one of the best centers in Ohio State history.

Let's reserve judgment for another couple of years, to see what Bolls can do with some true talent (and depth) along the OL, with guys like Boren, Brewster, Shugarts, Adams, Mewhort, Linsley, Hall, Longo, and Norwell. If the OL is still having "issues" in 2010 (and I'm really not sure exactly what "issues" they have right now, as it's still too early to judge for this season), then maybe we should question his approach and results.

 

[OregonBuckeye]

Let's reserve judgment for another couple of years, to see what Bolls can do with some true talent (and depth) along the OL, with guys like Boren, Brewster, Shugarts, Adams, Mewhort, Linsley, Hall, Longo, and Norwell. If the OL is still having "issues" in 2010 (and I'm really not sure exactly what "issues" they have right now, as it's still too early to judge for this season), then maybe we should question his approach and results.

Sounds like a plan.

 

[BayBuck]

Yards per play by season (2004-2008) for USC, Texas, Florida and OSU.

USC
2004: 6.3
2005: 7.5
2006: 5.9
2007: 5.8
2008: 6.6
Average: 6.42

Texas
2004: 6.3
2005: 7.1
2006: 6.0
2007: 6.2
2008: 6.5
Average: 6.42

Florida
2004: 6.2
2005: 5.3
2006: 6.3
2007: 7.0
2008: 7.1
Average: 6.38

OSU
2004: 5.1
2005: 6.3
2006: 6.1
2007: 5.8
2008: 5.5
Average: 5.76

So how do these stats relate to Jim Bollman and the O-line when Jim Tressel calls the plays and sets the offensive tone for the team, and is clearly not as interested in racking up stats all four quarters as some of those other teams? I think you've seen enough OSU football to know JT can put his offense in chew-the-clock mode when he feels a game is in hand, and that affects an overall yards/play statistic.

I don't know the stats, so I'm not saying this rhetorically, but I'd think there are better stats you could use to criticize the OL play specifically, like sacks allowed and yards/rush and false start penalties for example. Not that I think that a statistical argument will go too far here, as stats can be used to prove any point and the criticism on this thread seems to be mainly an emotional response.