Indians Tidbits (2009 season)

[itownbuckeye]

There is 0% chance of that happening. They are struggling financially and major upgrades are needed in both the rotation and bullpen...which they can't afford to make.

Teams just aren't parting with top prospects like they used to. Hell, the Yankees are hesitant to deal Phil Hughes who has already flamed out a couple of times at the MLB level. Carrasco has a lot of upside, as does Donald. Marson, if nothing else could be a safety valve on the slim chance something happens to Santana...or even future trade bait. There seems to be conflicting reports on Knapp's inclusion, but if he's in, it's a slam dunk. Four solid prospects is almost unheard of today.

The market for Cliff isn't going to be any better next year, plus you run the risk of injury or him turning back into "bad Cliff". Unless a better offer comes along, you take it and don't look back.

Zero percent chance? Think that's being a little too pessimistic. Some people had them as a favorite to win the division this year. Obviously things went wrong but they could go the other way next year. If somehow Carmona can get turned around and Westbrook comes back then you have rotation upgrades. Huff & Laffey have shown improvement lately and Rondon will be a legitimate option. Bullpens are so volatile that you could have the same group of guys in there and go from best to worst or vice versa from one year to the next. I see no reason they can't compete in a weak division (with Lee).

I see another John McDonald in Jason Donald. No power, no speed and he's not even hitting for average in AAA. He's older than both Cabrera & Valbuena and is not as good. Possible utility IF? Marson seems like a decent player but I don't see a need. Giminez & Torregas can be the safety valves for Santana. I like Knapp but he is so far away a lot of bad things can happen (already some reports of shoulder issues). Carrasco is a decent prospect but the other questions make it a no-brainer to reject this deal. When dealing a reigning Cy Young winner on a cheap contract I think you have to demand an elite return. To get something you've got to give something so I'd tell the Phillies to either discuss Drabek or hang up the phone.

 

[NFBuck]

Sources: Phils reach agreement for Indians' Lee - FOX Sports on MSN

Looks like a deal has been reached.

Francisco and Lee for Knapp, Carrasco, Donald, and Marson

Can say i'm thrilled about the deal, and props to tsteele for being right about the market

The next domino falls. Look, Cliff is a very good pitcher, but this team is going nowhere in the immediate future with or without him. At least this signals they're committing to a full on rebuild, which is what is needed. Dealing Francisco hopefully opens up a spot for LaPorta real quick.

Carrasco isn't that far off and could be ready for the bigs at some point next season. Donald may be them hedging their bets against Valbuena (who I'm not convinced is an everyday player). Knapp is very young with a lot of upside. Marfa gives some more depth to the farm system. All in all, I don't think they could get a better deal. Getting Drabek, Taylor or Brown was a pipe dream unless they took less players.

This isn't going to make a lot of people happy as it pretty much symbolizes them waving the white flag and committing to at least a couple of really lean years, but it's simply what needs to be done. There are far too many holes on this team to try to plug with mediocre FA's year in and year out. Now you go back to where they were in 2002-03 and start rebuilding from within. I like the trade. Now we'll see if Victor can bring in something from the Sawks. If they get a Buckholz (unlikely), a Bowden, Reddick or Tazawa from them...I'll be ecstatic.

 

[NFBuck]

Zero percent chance? Think that's being a little too pessimistic. Some people had them as a favorite to win the division this year. Obviously things went wrong but they could go the other way next year. If somehow Carmona can get turned around and Westbrook comes back then you have rotation upgrades. Huff & Laffey have shown improvement lately and Rondon will be a legitimate option. Bullpens are so volatile that you could have the same group of guys in there and go from best to worst or vice versa from one year to the next. I see no reason they can't compete in a weak division (with Lee).

Yes, zero percent chance. All people picking them to win the division shows is that they've garnered some "benefit of the doubt". Hoping that Carmona can get back to the form needed to be a legit #2 is a real longshot at this point and right now Jake is having trouble staying healthy enough to pitch this year. How much can you expect from him after a year and a half away? I don't see Huff ever making much impact in the big leagues and I'm convinced Laffey would be best utilized in long relief. Nothing of that leads me to believe next year would be much better. Bullpens are very hard to predict, but this current batch is a bunch of scrubs...never has beens and never will be's. Again, you're rolling the dice hoping to strike gold when the odds are considerably against you.

We've (not necessarily you and me) had this discussion before here. It's a matter of philosophy. Do you want to keep the current roster with all it's holes and hope maybe they can do better next year? Is it even worth it when the best you can hope for is winning a weak division then getting trounced in the playoffs? Or do you realize that your window for a title (which should be the ultimate goal) has closed and it's time to start rebuilding for another run a couple years down the road? I take option B...because this team, even on the razor thin chance everything (Carmona returning to form, Westbrook coming back and being a solid #3, Laffey/Huff/Rondon being capable back of the rotation guys, the bullpen magically going from a comedy troupe to repectable) goes right, still wouldn't have the horses to get deep into October/November.

Not to mention the Wedge issue...

 

[tsteele316]

cleveland could have probably gotten a little more than they did, but it certainly appears as if shapiro had marching orders to dump salary ASAP.

Victor should probably start packing his bags as well.

 

[itownbuckeye]

Yes, zero percent chance. All people picking them to win the division shows is that they've garnered some "benefit of the doubt". Hoping that Carmona can get back to the form needed to be a legit #2 is a real longshot at this point and right now Jake is having trouble staying healthy enough to pitch this year. How much can you expect from him after a year and a half away? I don't see Huff ever making much impact in the big leagues and I'm convinced Laffey would be best utilized in long relief. Nothing of that leads me to believe next year would be much better. Bullpens are very hard to predict, but this current batch is a bunch of scrubs...never has beens and never will be's. Again, you're rolling the dice hoping to strike gold when the odds are considerably against you.

We've (not necessarily you and me) had this discussion before here. It's a matter of philosophy. Do you want to keep the current roster with all it's holes and hope maybe they can do better next year? Is it even worth it when the best you can hope for is winning a weak division then getting trounced in the playoffs? Or do you realize that your window for a title (which should be the ultimate goal) has closed and it's time to start rebuilding for another run a couple years down the road? I take option B...because this team, even on the razor thin chance everything (Carmona returning to form, Westbrook coming back and being a solid #3, Laffey/Huff/Rondon being capable back of the rotation guys, the bullpen magically going from a comedy troupe to repectable) goes right, still wouldn't have the horses to get deep into October/November.

Not to mention the Wedge issue...

I don't have a problem with them trading Lee, it's just that I don't think they got value for him. They got two prospects who have faltered since moving up a level (Donald & Carrasco), a prospect at one of the deepest positions on the team (Marson) & the best prospect in the deal is the furthest away and has shoulder troubles (Knapp). On top of that they had to throw in a decent ML player to make the deal. I'm not a big Francisco fan but he would be decent in his true role as a 4th OF and could have been traded for a mid-level prospect on his own.

 

[AmeriBuck007]

cleveland could have probably gotten a little more than they did, but it certainly appears as if shapiro had marching orders to dump salary ASAP.

Victor should probably start packing his bags as well.

+1

Would be shocked if Victor isn't moved as well.

Not a huge fan of the move but if you look at the whole body of work they've traded away Lee, Garko, Betancourt, and DeRosa and received 8 players with some big potential.

Looks like we're gonna be stacked from Kinston to Columbus for awhile

 

[tsteele316]

+1

Would be shocked if Victor isn't moved as well.

Not a huge fan of the move but if you look at the whole body of work they've traded away Lee, Garko, Betancourt, and DeRosa and received 8 players with some big potential.

Looks like we're gonna be stacked from Kinston to Columbus for awhile

i like carasco. his peripherals are very good this year, his ERA doesn't do him justice, and he just turned 22. marson is a good catcher prospect, but I have to think he's going to be fodder for another move to be made. Donald is probably a utility infielder in the future.

francisco is fool's gold. the simple fact that including him gets laporta to cleveland is good enough.

cleveland may have been able to leverage Taylor if they weren't so obviously trying to dump salary.

 

[NFBuck]

+
Not a huge fan of the move but if you look at the whole body of work they've traded away Lee, Garko, Betancourt, and DeRosa and received 8 players with some big potential.

Agreed. Maybe they could have gotten more for Lee, but many of us felt the same way about C.C. last year. They've gotten pretty decent value from the other moves and I'll wait to see what kind of haul Victor brings in before passing final judgement, but right now I'm pretty happy about what I've seen. They are all decent enough prospects though and I'll take the wait and see approach. Keeping Cliff did nothing and I doubt they would have gotten much more next season for him.

Maybe I'm just giddy from them actually admitting that a rebuild is needed (even if it may be ultimately financially motivated), but I'm quite happy with the moves made thus far. At least we're not Reds fans whose team refuses to make smart moves to improve for the future or even mentions being buyers this time of year...

 

[NFBuck]

francisco is fool's gold. the simple fact that including him gets laporta to cleveland is good enough.

+1,000. At least Dellucci or Garko aren't around to take AB's away from him anymore. Lets see what the kid can do...

 

[Bucks21]

I expect Victor to be moved, they are cutting salary as much as possible right now. Getting rid of Francisco is fine, its get Laporta to the majors, plus Brantley is going to get called up sometime too. We have plenty of OF's prospects in the minors. Welgarz is probably two years away too in Akron.

 

[Brutus1]

What a bunch of fucking turds. It's not like you're trading away the Cy Young winner because he's a free agent in 2 months or because he's sucking.
He's pitching great and has a decent salary for '09.

Shapiro is an idiot and if Dolan is dumping salary, then the dickhead should get the fuck out of the baseball business.

Don't buy the hype on these turds. I hope the Phillies kissed Shapiro before they fucked him.

 

[NFBuck]

What a bunch of fucking turds. It's not like you're trading away the Cy Young winner because he's a free agent in 2 months or because he's sucking.
He's pitching great and has a decent salary for '09.

Shapiro is an idiot and if Dolan is dumping salary, then the dickhead should get the fuck out of the baseball business.

Don't buy the hype on these turds. I hope the Phillies kissed Shapiro before they fucked him.

There's always gotta be a few.

Salary dump or not, Lee was not helping the Tribe in the grand scheme of things. On a competitive team, he's a great pitcher to have. On this sinking ship, he's a trading chip. Maybe they could have got more, but I doubt it, not the way the market is shaking out this year. Carrasco is a high level prospect with very good stuff. Knapp is the same, though harder to project because he's very young. Donald is at worst infield depth, possibly a starter if Valbuena doesn't develop and AsCab goes back to 2B. Marfa is a very good prospect and could either provide depth or be another bargaining piece.

Keeping Lee does nothing to help this team other than meaningless wins on a bad team. At least stocking up on prospects helps build for the future. But everybody is certainly entitled to their opinion.

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

At least we're not Reds fans whose team refuses to make smart moves to improve for the future or even mentions being buyers this time of year...

We're only 8 games out of first place!!!!11!!

Don't mention that they're in 5th place in a mediocre division, 9 games under .500, and in a fucking free fall.

 

[NFBuck]

At this point, Halladay appears to be staying put...good news for the Tribe if they on moving Victor.

I love Victor, he's been a great Indian and an even better citizen, but lets look at the big picture. Victor's future is at 1B. As a catcher he provides very good offense, but as a 1B, he's merely average to slightly above average. He got off to a tremendous start, but has been pretty awful the past two months. Hopefully that hasn't diminished his value too much. I suppose there was a very small chance they would consider moving him back to C to replace Captain K and give Santana more time, but that's a short term move.

Hopefully Victor can net a similar haul to Lee...maybe slightly less. If they can get two good prospects from Boston, I'd consider all these moves a tremendous success. In the past 13 months (dating to before the Sabathia trade), the Tribe's farm system has gone from being pretty barren to very well stocked top to bottom.

 

[NFBuck]

We're only 8 games out of first place!!!!11!!

Don't mention that they're in 5th place in a mediocre division, 9 games under .500, and in a fucking free fall.

No worries...

Reds Acquire Wladimir Balentien
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 29 at 1:56pm CST]
Ed Price of AOL FanHouse reports that the Reds acquired Wladimir Balentien from the Mariners for righty Robert Manuel.

MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com