Floods, Fossils, Science and Faith (Split from Global Warming)

[t_BuckeyeScott]

What this person doesn't much like is the assumption of many believers in God that fear of consequences from God is necessary for any human being to reasonably self-limit his or her behavior given that: (1) There are many other incentives to self-limit behavior (physical danger, fear of disapproval of or desire for approval of other humans, emotional attachments, legal consequences . . .); and (2) Belief in God seems to have limited influence on the range of behavior humans actually engage in.

The French say that a man who thinks there's another man under his bed has been under one himself, and I often think about that when being told that I need fear of God to keep me from becoming a monster.

In your experience do dangers such as STDs keep people from being promiscuous or from drinking and driving? Do monetary factors keep people from commiting adultry? Does fear of the law keep more people from murdering each year? Is it just me or all these things becoming more and more prevalant? Approval from others is what you need? We can go back to an oldie but goodie: would you jump off a bridge to get approval from others. Didn't think so.

The French say that a man who thinks there's another man under his bed has been under one himself.

Absolutely that's an easy one. To be a Christian one has to admit being a sinner. Didn't know we agreed.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

In your experience do dangers such as STDs keep people from being promiscuous or from drinking and driving? Do monetary factors keep people from commiting adultry? Does fear of the law keep more people from murdering each year? Is it just me or all these things becoming more and more prevalant? Approval from others is what you need? We can go back to an oldie but goodie: would you jump off a bridge to get approval from others. Didn't think so.

Does God keep people righteous?

Absolutely that's an easy one. To be a Christian one has to admit being a sinner. Didn't know we agreed.

Sounds like a 12 step program.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Sufficient due process to convict of a crime does not mean that the individual committed said crime. Try again.

When a jury is asked to decide if someone is guity, isn't the clause "beyond all reasonable doubt" That's what I find: The Resurrection beyond all reasonable doubt.

I see. How about David Koresh then? He seemed to not have very much.. I mean, yeah he had his little compound and all, but it's not like Peter, Paul and company had their sandles and that's all.. I mean, hell, they were educated, pretty rare for men of their day, so we can assume they had some means... But, back to Koresh.... sincere? Yes, he wasn't "hung" but it's easy enough to argue he killed himself because of the punishment from the Gov. that would follow.

Tom Cruise is apparently the savior. Shall I believe that because someone says so? Even if several someones write it down?

Has Sadam Huessien, David Caresh, or Tom Cruise risen from the Dead? If so are there sincere men telling me that today? If so are there thousands of witnesses to see the resurrected body? Is there anyone denying the fact that these guys have risen from the dead? Easy questions.

The difference is that Jesus actually rose from the dead. Jesus was saw by thousands. Noone at the time bothered to write anything to deny this even while everyone at the time hated Christians and Jesus.

 

[Jagdaddy]

In your experience do dangers such as STDs keep people from being promiscuous or from drinking and driving? Do monetary factors keep people from commiting adultry? Does fear of the law keep more people from murdering each year? Is it just me or all these things becoming more and more prevalant? Approval from others is what you need? We can go back to an oldie but goodie: would you jump off a bridge to get approval from others. Didn't think so.


Absolutely that's an easy one. To be a Christian one has to admit being a sinner. Didn't know we agreed.

First, does believing in God keep people from doing any of those things? Have no Christians or other believers picked up STDs, driven drunk, murdered people, committed adultery? The guys in al qaeda believe in God, but that hasn't seemed to keep them behaving like little angels. I can only speak for myself, but rest assured that fear of the law and of disgracing my name and that of my family provides a much stronger incentive to me to not murder anyone (or steal or do drugs . . .) than fear of God does.

As for your snarky comment re: approval, virtually everyone needs some approval from others: Do you not, e.g., sometimes ask the wife what movie she wants to see and go see it even if you'd rather see something else or watch a football game?

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Does God keep people righteous?

Sounds like a 12 step program.

What do you think the 12 step is based off of?

 

[Bleed S & G]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Ganhdi

Live with love, dosen't matter if your christian, muslim, or atheist. Thats the great teaching that transcends time & faith

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

When a jury is asked to decide if someone is guity, isn't the clause "beyond all reasonable doubt" That's what I find: The Resurrection beyond all reasonable doubt.

that's fine... I'm not saying you're incorrect to believe what you believe, just that it's not evidence, it's faith. And, as threads like this show, on the larger scale, there is pleanty of reasonable doubt. Doesn't mean you should change your view, don't get me wrong.

Has Sadam Huessien, David Caresh, or Tom Cruise risen from the Dead? If so are there sincere men telling me that today? If so are there thousands of witnesses to see the resurrected body? Is there anyone denying the fact that these guys have risen from the dead? Easy questions.

Has Jesus? Again, you believe he did - and that's fine... but you can't hold that out as a fact in this hypo, as it's not a fact.. it's a belief.. Suppose Brewtus, Jag, MolGlen and 85 and I all wrote accounts of Koresh rising from the dead. Would that suddenly become credible? Even in the face of Brewtus, Jag, MolGlen 85 and I all being laughed at unmercifully.. perhaps drugged and institutionalized, etc?

The difference is that Jesus actually rose from the dead. Jesus was saw by thousands. Noone at the time bothered to write anything to deny this even while everyone at the time hated Christians and Jesus.

Once again.... If I get a handful of my friends together, we make up some wild story about Tom Cruise, repeat it every chance we get, etc. does Tom Cruise become the savior? Not so much. Jesus rose from the dead.... Prove it.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Ganhdi

Live with love, dosen't matter if your christian, muslim, or atheist. Thats the great teaching that transcends time & faith

I can't give Gahndi green, so It'll have to go to you.

 

[Buckeyes85]

Yet if a person truly desires to possess knowledge, then he would not limit himself to only those things that explicitly manifest themselves before his eyes.

I don't disagree, but again the debate was on the purpose of science. However, at the end of the day, even most scientists agree that science does not adequately explain things such as where we came from, where we go when we die, the existence or non existence of a god.

Fair enough, but are you saying that supernatural causes must be excluded?

No, that is not the purpose of science. But throughout the history of science, many supernatural causes have been excluded. (A god does not drag the sun across the sky; Thor does not cause thunder; Isis does not do whatever she supposedly did; etc).

If not, then you cannot rule out lvbuckeye's arguments by appealing to science, since scientific study does not rule out the supernatural.

Perhaps this is the basis of your misunderstanding of my comment. I have never claimed that science rules out he supernatural. All I ever said was that science does not look for explanations for things premised upon matters of faith.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

First, does believing in God keep people from doing any of those things? Have no Christians or other believers picked up STDs, driven drunk, murdered people, committed adultery? The guys in al qaeda believe in God, but that hasn't seemed to keep them behaving like little angels. I can only speak for myself, but rest assured that fear of the law and of disgracing my name and that of my family provides a much stronger incentive to me to not murder anyone (or steal or do drugs . . .) than fear of God does.

As for your snarky comment re: approval, virtually everyone needs some approval from others: Do you not, e.g., sometimes ask the wife what movie she wants to see and go see it even if you'd rather see something else or watch a football game?

All I was saying is that law isn't and hasn't been the driving force for people for people to act moral, neither has approval from others, neither has dangers. Whether I want to see a movie or not is not a moral decision. Remeber that jihadists are convinced that what they are doing is going to get them God's approval. In other words they think they are obeying God. And sure approval from others is nice and all but if you really want something and the only thing stopping you is disapproval from others how often are you going to go ahead and do it? We might use approval for matters trivial matters, but not for major ones. Lets put it this way. Our society now encourages pedophilia. In fact you get a bonus 1000 dollars for every year of age under 14 for every pedophilic act you commit. Is that okay with you.

I've already stated that Christians are sinners. That is precisely why we need Jesus. Because God demands perfection. I know I have utterly disasterously failed. Only through Jesus's work on the cross am I saved and his work through me do I hope to do any better.

Oh and I apologize for being snarky.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I've already stated that Christians are sinners. That is precisely why we need Jesus. Because God demands perfection. I know I have utterly disasterously failed. Only through Jesus's work on the cross am I saved and his work through me do I hope to do any better.

See, on this point, I prefer to simply take responsibility for my own actions, and don't expect anyone to bail me out. My God, on the other hand, doesn't "demand perfection" he "demands" I be the best me I can be, and that's about it.... Much like a Father treats a child.

 

[Best Buckeye]

See, on this point, I prefer to simply take responsibility for my own actions, and don't expect anyone to bail me out. My God, on the other hand, doesn't "demand perfection" he "demands" I be the best me I can be, and that's about it.... Much like a Father treats a child.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

 

[Buckeyes85]

If you don't deny the existence of God then you cannot declare that the flood account of Genesis is just a made-up story. Yet, you have done exactly that. So which is it? Do you deny or don't you?

You morphed from the distinction between science/faith into my personal beliefs. I absolutely deny the existence of god, but that has nothing to do with the definition of science. Really not sure why you can't separate the two.

The most you can say in opposition to lvbuckeye is that you don't accept his theory, which is perfectly understandable since you are an atheist.

Which theory is that, that Noah's flood created the grand canyon? If so, yea I sure can say more about that than just a blanket disagreement based upon my atheist status.

But you cannot appeal to science for help because science is impotent in trying to establish or refute a historical account. Your denial of the Genesis flood account is pre-determined by your philosophical beliefs, for better or worse.

Wrong and wrong. Science has debunked many historical accounts/myths.

And I once believed the myth of Noah's arc, so the evolution of my thought process is the reverse of what you suggested.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

that's fine... I'm not saying you're incorrect to believe what you believe, just that it's not evidence, it's faith. And, as threads like this show, on the larger scale, there is pleanty of reasonable doubt. Doesn't mean you should change your view, don't get me wrong.



Has Jesus? Again, you believe he did - and that's fine... but you can't hold that out as a fact in this hypo, as it's not a fact.. it's a belief.. Suppose Brewtus, Jag, MolGlen and 85 and I all wrote accounts of Koresh rising from the dead. Would that suddenly become credible? Even in the face of Brewtus, Jag, MolGlen 85 and I all being laughed at unmercifully.. perhaps drugged and institutionalized, etc?


Once again.... If I get a handful of my friends together, we make up some wild story about Tom Cruise, repeat it every chance we get, etc. does Tom Cruise become the savior? Not so much. Jesus rose from the dead.... Prove it.

This is where the sincerety and the credibilty of the witnesses comes in. While the witnesses were educated its not like they recieved their education because they followed Christ. Paul was a missionary but didn't recieve anything from the church's back home. Paul was tentmaker to make his own way. They recieved nothing.

Also you have to be creative enough to come up with as a story as original as God coming down to earth to be a carpenter from dirtiest city in the area to be hailed tin the Holy city of his people as the Savior only to be crucified 3 days later by the very people that hailed him. Not to mention that you would have to somehow prove lineage back to King David. Oh that's right you have to me all the criteria that the Old Testament said He would meet. None of which you could fake. Read through those. Because it not only happened. Jesus was the only person who could fullfill all those. So not only would you have to get witnesses saying he rose from the dead, there's oh so much more.