Floods, Fossils, Science and Faith (Split from Global Warming)

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Ah, that prankster the Lord on High. I suppose this same God who killed the first born sons of Egypt has a problem with Killing, and that's why he called Abraham off.

First of all to be more clear I should have used the word murder instead of violence. So that was Moses murdering all of the First Born? No, okay then. I'm still not sure what's illogical about the Creator having rights over His creation. What He has a problem with is disobedience.

I see. God didn't give us the Old Test then? Moses pulling our legs when he says that "the Word" was given to him in one long string for him to write down. He just full of shit? The New Test's desire for peace supercedes the Old Law? Please, I need to know.

Didn't Moses give us the law not to murder. What exactly is the difference?

Likewise, considering your contentions on the New Test. and violence, how the fuck can it be that any "Christian" would also support what we're doing in Iraq? The killing of Hussein? The Death Penalty?

Do you consider self defense murder? While I wish that noone should die by killing. In this case War in Iraq was US way of self-defending. But its not like I or any Christian desires war or someone else's death. That's an absurd conclusion.

Oh.... right.. we have to realy on the Old Test. for that. Very confusing. God sure didn't do a very good job of explaining himself. And, in line with the whole original sin discussion above, I can't see any reason to be with this bastard forever. Creates me as a sinner, gives me no reason to believe in him, intentionally tries to confuse me by giving me seperate and conflicting messages regarding peace, and seems to be perfectly happy damning people at the first opportunity. You like that God?

God didn't create you as a sinner. God gave us all free will to choose whether or not to sin. We all according to our free will sinned. Let me illustrate. You create a robot that says all day "BKB is God. I love him" at regular intervuls. You also have children with your wife. Your child has a free will to love you or not adore you or not, obey you or not. Who's adoration would you rather have the Robot or your child's? We've already discussed one of the biggest reasons to believe in Him: Jesus Christ. Damning at every oppurtunity, really? That's the picture you get from a God who sent who his own Son down to earth to die an absolutely brutal death as a perfect sacrifice for you. So that you may be perfect in His eyes. What a mean, terrible God I have, the One who died for me and would have died were it only me that accepeted it. That God chose me. He chose me, I didn't choose Him. And I absolutely positively love Him for it. Because I certainly didn't deserve it.

You can have him. I'll stick with my God who doesn't trouble himself with all this petty crap and just is.

Likewise I'll stick with the one true God that died for me.

 

[Brewtus]

umm... FYI, in China in 2002 they unearthed a fossilized mammal with a dinosaur in its stomach.

Okay, you are correct, late Mesozoic dinosaurs did live at the same time as early mammals. Let me be more precise. Why don't we find mammals that lived in the Miocene in the same strata as dinosaurs that lived anytime during the Mesozoic? Or why aren't small animals that lived during the Paleozoic not found with any small animals that lived during the Cenozoic? These consist of thousands of different species of the same size that are never found together. How does Creationism explain that?

 

[lvbuckeye]

did you read the page that i linked that explained liquification and layered sediments?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

stop. all you are demonstrating is your ignorance. you evidently haven't ever read the Bible for yourself, and are just making rash asspumptions and twisting people's words.

I'm demonstrating my ignorance? Tell me, if you freeze water, and it becomes ice, is it still water?

 

[lvbuckeye]

it's ice.

i'm being serious. i know you have a Catholic background, and i'm fairly confident that you had to recite the cathechism, and do your fair share of hail marys, but i seriously question whether or not you have ever actually read the Bible for yourself. i started typing a response to what you wrote in post #154, but then i just came to this realization that all of the questions you asked are clearly answered by Paul in his letter to the Romans. i'm not going to sit here and explain what the Bible says line by line to you, because you have obviously never made an effort to find out what it really says. instead you rely on preconcieved false notions and argue semantics. simply put, i have very little desire to argue with someone who is using his ignorance as ammunition.

 

[Brewtus]

did you read the page that i linked that explained liquification and layered sediments?

Yes, and I found this quote:

Once liquefaction begins, sedimentary particles fall or rise relative to each other, sorting themselves into layers, each having particles with similar size, shape, and density.

Which doesn't answer my question: Why aren't small animals that lived during the Paleozoic not found with any small animals that lived during the Cenozoic?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

No true "Christian" could.. because Christ wouldn't. A true christian would turn the other cheek and wish love upon his enemies. There aren't too many of these people around today - see the indigo & crystal children who are now entering this realm and represent the next step in human evolution and in general, consitent with the end of times, where this world is going..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_children

This whole relgion thing is quite simple, its all about love. Regaurdless of what God did, who are we (man) to judge God?

Couldn't have said it better myself. (Although, I would have spelled regardless without a "u" :p)

First of all to be more clear I should have used the word murder instead of violence. So that was Moses murdering all of the First Born? No, okay then. I'm still not sure what's illogical about the Creator having rights over His creation. What He has a problem with is disobedience.

You're being serious, right? This mistake free perfect creator created things that are disobedient to him and need to be killed? Riddle me that one. And, when you're finished with that, explain to me what exaclty "killing" means to God, assuming you believe in immortal soul.

Didn't Moses give us the law not to murder. What exactly is the difference?
Do you consider self defense murder? While I wish that noone should die by killing. In this case War in Iraq was US way of self-defending. But its not like I or any Christian desires war or someone else's death. That's an absurd conclusion.

Yes, I consider self defense murder. I also consider your analysis of the US's role in begining the current Iraq war under-informed at best, and out and out making up facts to fit your perspective at worst. Regardless, it doesn't matter to me, I don't consider self defense anything other than murder. You're talking about a legal justification for murder, not whether the act is or is not murder. Your God doesn't sound like the kind of guy who wants to hear excuses. "I said don't kill. You killed." "But, God, I was just defending myself" "Listen, tell me where this is incorrect - I said, "don't kill" and you killed anyway, even if you thought you had to. Did I leave any caveat on the 10 commandments? Because I'll tell you, I don't remember doing that, and I've got a really good memory."

Justify your wars any way you have to, but the idea that War and God can go together is outlandish, and any parrish the teaches that should be laughed at unmercifully.

Besides, if your mistake free perfect God gives half a shit about Iraq and terrorist and bad guys in general, no doubt he's powerful enough to deal with them on his own. If God can break his own rules (as LV contends, supercedes them) then let him deal with Terrorists. If he's not killing off the terrorists, I suppose we should assume 1 of 2 things, he likes their activities or 2 he doesn't care. In my way of thinking, God doesn't care. This reality we have... it's not his reality. If I "die," so what. In saying that, I concede at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if people fight in a war, kill, etc. And, I can live with that. What I can't live with is people believing two incongruant things and claiming some sort of religious superiority over me - holding eternal salvation over my head. I'm not saying you've done the necessarily.... just saying it's these reasons why organized Christianity.. organized religion generally is complete bullshit. In fact, if you ask me, Church is "just business." Religion is something very different.

God didn't create you as a sinner.

So, you do have a different God than LV. Got ya. Well, which one of you two is damned for believing in the wrong God? I'm guessing you're the saved one, yes?

God gave us all free will to choose whether or not to sin. We all according to our free will sinned. Let me illustrate. You create a robot that says all day "BKB is God. I love him" at regular intervuls. You also have children with your wife. Your child has a free will to love you or not adore you or not, obey you or not. Who's adoration would you rather have the Robot or your child's?

Allow me to ask you this, if God is God as you know it... that is, if God is omnipotent, then how could it be that we have free will?

We've already discussed one of the biggest reasons to believe in Him: Jesus Christ. Damning at every oppurtunity, really? That's the picture you get from a God who sent who his own Son down to earth to die an absolutely brutal death as a perfect sacrifice for you.

Do you listen to yourself? Yes, I said he seems to enjoy damning things, including his "own son" Very brutal God you have there. Enjoy him. By the way, don't you think maybe some self mortification is in order so God knows you're serious?

So that you may be perfect in His eyes. What a mean, terrible God I have, the One who died for me and would have died were it only me that accepeted it.

God died for you? How exactly did an immoratal die. Riddle me this.... What's the point in an all powerful God going through such a motion.... if he wanted to "forgive us our sins" why didn't he just say to himself, "Self, let's just forgive them their sins" Your all powerful God doesnt seem very efficient, and agian, seems to really like setting people up to expierence pain. You can have him.

That God chose me. He chose me, I didn't choose Him. And I absolutely positively love Him for it. Because I certainly didn't deserve it.
Likewise I'll stick with the one true God that died for me.

Glad he took you instead of me. Enjoy the torture.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Yes, and I found this quote:



Which doesn't answer my question: Why aren't small animals that lived during the Paleozoic not found with any small animals that lived during the Cenozoic?

Ohhhh... I know...

Because the theory that all this stuff mixed up in water and layered out according to density is COMPLETE HORSE SHIT!

 

[lvbuckeye]

Yes, and I found this quote:



Which doesn't answer my question: Why aren't small animals that lived during the Paleozoic not found with any small animals that lived during the Cenozoic?

how small? are talking bug size here, or small animals like rabbits and chickens?

 

[BayBuck]

The whole of it. I don't comprehend this God of yours that creates me to be damned. You can have him.

Nobody was created to be damned--we do the damning all by ourselves, with our arrogant belief that we can actually handle the full consequences of our own actions. God's grace is free to anyone willing to unburden themselves of a load that's too heavy to bear alone.

 

[lvbuckeye]

Ohhhh... I know...

Because the theory that all this stuff mixed up in water and layered out according to density is COMPLETE HORSE SHIT!

Liquefaction and Water Lenses. The wave cycle begins at the left with water being forced down into the seafloor. As the wave trough approaches, that compressed water is released. Water then flows up through the seafloor, lifting the sediments, starting at the top of the sedimentary column. During liquefaction, denser particles sink and lighter particles (and dead organisms, soon to become fossils) float up?until a liquefaction lens is encountered. Lenses of water form along nearly horizontal paths if the sediments below those horizontal paths are more permeable than those above, so more water flows up into each lens than out through its roof. Sedimentary particles and dead organisms buried in the sediments were sorted and resorted into vast, thin layers. In an unpublished experiment at Loma Linda University, a dead bird, mammal, reptile, and amphibian were placed in an open water tank. Their buoyancy in the days following death depended on their density while living, the build-up and leakage of gases from their decaying bodies, the absorption or loss of water by their bodies, and other factors. That experiment showed that the natural order of settling following death was amphibian, reptile, mammal, and finally bird.17 This order of relative buoyancy correlates closely with ?the evolutionary order,? but, of course, evolution did not cause it. Other factors, also influencing burial order at each geographical location, were: liquefaction lenses, which animals were living in the same region, and each animal?s mobility before the flood overtook it.

Liquefaction Demonstration. When the wooden blocks at the top of the horizontal beam are removed, the beam can rock like a teeter-totter. As the far end of the beam is tipped up, water flows from the far tank down through the pipe and up into a container at the left which holds a mixture of sediments. Once liquefaction begins, sedimentary particles fall or rise relative to each other, sorting themselves into layers, each having particles with similar size, shape, and density. Buried bodies with the density of plants and dead animals float up through the sediments?until they reach a liquefaction lens. The same would happen to plants and animals buried during the flood. Their sorting and later fossilization might give the mistaken impression that organisms buried and fossilized in higher layers evolved millions of years after lower organisms. A ?school of thought,? with appealing philosophical implications for some, would arise that claimed changes in living things were simply a matter of time. With so many complex differences among protons, peanuts, parrots, and people, eons of time must have elapsed. With so much time available, many other strange observations might be explained. Some would try to explain even the origin of the universe, including space, time, and matter, using this faulty, unscientific ?school of thought.? Of course, these ideas could not be demonstrated (as liquefaction can be), because too much time would be needed.




link


amazing, here we have a theory explaining how the fossil layers were formed that was then verified by SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS.

and before you go off in your attempt at discrediting the author, please be advised that he has a PhD in Mechanical Egineering from MIT, and is a National Science Foundation Fellow and former evolutionist.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

it's ice.

It's Ice. And so... the clouds... they're not made of water, they're just clouds, right?

Anyway.....

i'm being serious. i know you have a Catholic background, and i'm fairly confident that you had to recite the cathechism, and do your fair share of hail marys, but i seriously question whether or not you have ever actually read the Bible for yourself. i started typing a response to what you wrote in post #154, but then i just came to this realization that all of the questions you asked are clearly answered by Paul in his letter to the Romans. i'm not going to sit here and explain what the Bible says line by line to you, because you have obviously never made an effort to find out what it really says. instead you rely on preconcieved false notions and argue semantics. simply put, i have very little desire to argue with someone who is using his ignorance as ammunition.

I'm going to lunch, so this answer won't be as long as it should be.... Yes, I've read the bible. Critically. (Obviously) How desireable do you think it is to argue with someone who thinks when liquid water freezes it becomes something else that isn't water. What was that you were saying about one thing can't become another thing over on the Evolution thread?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

and before you go off in your attempt at discrediting the author, please be advised that he has a PhD in Mechanical Egineering from MIT, and is a National Science Foundation Fellow and former evolutionist.

Does he think frozen water isn't water too?

 

[Bleed S & G]

You're being serious, right? This mistake free perfect creator created things that are disobedient to him and need to be killed? Riddle me that one. And, when you're finished with that, explain to me what exaclty "killing" means to God, assuming you believe in immortal soul.

Free will. Adam & Eve had the choice to listen. Or do follow temptation. "Lord deliever us from temptation" Thats a sin, knowing whats right and choosing wrong. Only one fair judge can decide what one person knew at the time of that act. "Ignorance is bliss."

Yes, I consider self defense murder. I also consider your analysis of the US's role in begining the current Iraq war under-informed at best, and out and out making up facts to fit your perspective at worst. Regardless, it doesn't matter to me, I don't consider self defense anything other than murder. You're talking about a legal justification for murder, not whether the act is or is not murder. Your God doesn't sound like the kind of guy who wants to hear excuses. "I said don't kill. You killed." "But, God, I was just defending myself" "Listen, tell me where this is incorrect - I said, "don't kill" and you killed anyway, even if you thought you had to. Did I leave any caveat on the 10 commandments? Because I'll tell you, I don't remember doing that, and I've got a really good memory."

Ding ding ding, some of Christs last words as a human were "Father please forgive them, they know not what they do." Turn the other cheek. Muhammad was the opposite, using revelation at his convience.

Justify your wars any way you have to, but the idea that War and God can go together is outlandish, and any parrish the teaches that should be laughed at unmercifully.

Agreed 100%.

Besides, if your mistake free perfect God gives half a shit about Iraq and terrorist and bad guys in general, no doubt he's powerful enough to deal with them on his own. If God can break his own rules (as LV contends, supercedes them) then let him deal with Terrorists. If he's not killing off the terrorists, I suppose we should assume 1 of 2 things, he likes their activities or 2 he doesn't care. In my way of thinking, God doesn't care. This reality we have... it's not his reality. If I "die," so what. In saying that, I concede at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if people fight in a war, kill, etc. And, I can live with that. What I can't live with is people believing two incongruant things and claiming some sort of religious superiority over me - holding eternal salvation over my head. I'm not saying you've done the necessarily.... just saying it's these reasons why organized Christianity.. organized religion generally is complete bullshit. In fact, if you ask me, Church is "just business." Religion is something very different.

I disagree with the don't care.. IMO it has to happen. Everyone knows my opinion on the anti-christ. Just like the Roman soliders taunting Christ, 'if you are the son of God, have him free you from this cross'

The more and more i think of "church" the more i think its a blasphemy.

Allow me to ask you this, if God is God as you know it... that is, if God is omnipotent, then how could it be that we have free will?

I dont think Him knowing all would influence free will

God died for you? How exactly did an immoratal die. Riddle me this.... What's the point in an all powerful God going through such a motion.... if he wanted to "forgive us our sins" why didn't he just say to himself, "Self, let's just forgive them their sins" Your all powerful God doesnt seem very efficient, and agian, seems to really like setting people up to expierence pain. You can have him.

You need a covenant.. and every covenant needs a sacrafice. "and God so loved the world, He gave His only Son." but on a deeper level the Son is the active force on the mortal plane - a manifestation of the Spirit in human form. Christ wasn't immortal, His soul & spirit were, which is why He had to manifest Himself to human form, so that He may die. And God does violate his own laws, such as rising from the dead. To conquer death. But where in the bible did God outline natural laws, etc. We as humans assume these to be laws based off of little to no knowledge of the workings of the universe, based only off of human perception.

 

[Jagdaddy]

That's close but the difference would be that God being the creator would have a right.

This has been nagging at me. Why does being the creator give him the right? If my wife and I create a child, do we have the right to kill it (post-birth, let's save the abortion debate for another time) or otherwise do with it as we please without limitation?