Floods, Fossils, Science and Faith (Split from Global Warming)

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

He does. and none of us are perfect. however He paid the price to atone for our sins. it is a gift, but that doesn't mean that we HAVE to accept it.

Yeah... I guess.... I still prefer to take responsibility for my own actions, sin and salvation. Means more to me if I do it myself rather than defer to some dude nailed to a piece of wood.

 

[JoJaBuckeye]

Yeah... I guess.... I still prefer to take responsibility for my own actions, sin and salvation. Means more to me if I do it myself rather than defer to some dude nailed to a piece of wood.

With respect, if one requires salvation, then by definition one cannot secure one's own. And if one can secure one's own, then one is not in need of salvation.

The core meaning is complete, absolute wholeness in every aspect of personhood.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Hussein was indeed a Sunni Muslim

Most Muslims as Iunderstand don't consider him a practicing Muslim for reasons such as this from the link:

Saddam espoused secular pan-Arabism,

Who are you to say who recieves what message from God. Didn't God tell Abraham to kill his only son?

Yes and he also told him not to.[/QUOTE]

Why should I believe that he wouldn't tell Joe Douchebag to pop off 100 rounds in a taco bell?

Seems to me you're selectively choosing whos telling the truth about God and what God's telling him to tell people/or do to people. That isn't a belief in God, that's a belief in oneself as the the judging side of God, if you will.

You have no reason to believe Joe Douchbag is lying about what God told him to do. You choose to believe God would't actually tell him to do such an act. And, you're probably right, frankly. Joe Douchbag is probably suffering from mental illness.... but then... wouldn't we then assume most to all biblical authors - and especially those who claimed to talk to God (better, that God talks to them)- be likely to be likewise suffering from such an illness?

I mean, lets face it... talking to God is normal. When God talks back, it's schizophrenia. ANd that's what kills me about allegedly devout christian types... it's all well and good to talk about God talking to Christ, or Moses or Job... it's cool when we're talking about dead people. But give me a live person who claims to be in communication with God, and you guys throw him under the bus faster than Richard Simmons going down in a gay bar.

See God gave us this Book we call the Bible. With this book I could take a look at what people say God said to them and compare it to this Book. Since the New Testament definately never espouses any kind of violence towards anyone from another human being we could very well say that Joe Douchebag had not got his message from God. That has nothing to do with my opinion. Oh and I absolutely believe God speaks to people today. I just expect that it wouldn't contradict the Book He gave us.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

it was a trick question. the replication will not take place in the presence of oxygen, yet the cell cannot live without it. wrap your head around that.

I'd have to read up on that from a reliable source. I've never heard such a thing, and it's not like I'm completely unaware of their efforts, though I'm far from an expert. Considering your contention that ice isn't water, I'm suspicious that your expertiese lies in a different area as well, so sadly I won't be defering to you on this one.

regarding that article, they didn't produce life. they wrote a program. i can write a program on my computer, but that doesn't mean i created the computer.

Huh... Here, when the article said:

When researchers created a synthetic genome (genetic map) of the virus and implanted it into a cell, the virus became "biologically active," meaning it went to work reproducing itself.

I thought we could safely assume it was more than just a computer program.

once you've accepted the presence of a Deity, isn't it kind of lame to question that Deity's power by assuming that Deity couldn't get it right the first time? no offense, but my God doesn't make mistakes. evolution posits millions years of mistakes, or 'failed attempts,' if you will, before we finally came out right.

I know of no evolutionist who claims millions of years of mistakes or failed attempts. I know of many creationists who twist the theory around in to such thinking however. And I highly doubt that "we've come out right." After all, we still feel compelled to shoot eachother with speeding pieces of metal, we seem perfectly willing to value the dollar over man, and we certainly don't have a problem calling things "mine" even while our fellow man asks for a dime for a cup of coffee.

Anyway, point is - no evolutionist posits failed attempts. Hell, I don't even know what a "failure" is when discussing evolution. In any case, assuming you're willing to accept that there does indeed exist dinosaur bones, and you're willing to concede that there are no more.. say... Tryanosaurus running around, it would seem your pefect God "failed" to keep that animal alive... or maybe just made a mistake..

suspect in whose eyes? we've already determined that there is no natural process that produces life from non-life. therefore life must be the result of a SUPERNATURAL process. QED.

1. We have certainly NOT determined that there is no natural process that produces life from non life. Newsflash: January 31, 2007 does not represent the conclusion of all things man will ever know.
2. There used to be no knowledge of the natural process which explained why two pieces of metal might stick together, or when placed close enough to eachother would move on their own towards or away from eachother. And while that may have led people to the conclusion that there must be some supernatural process at work, we later learned it was magnatism doing it. What I'm saying is, your conclusion doesn't follow. It MIGHT follow if what I said in 1 above wasn't true. So, you're left with the statement: Therefore life MAY be the result of supernatural processes. Or... no statement at all.

He doesn't violate the laws, He supercedes them. we've all sinned. the wages of sin is death. we are all damned by the laws of God because we've broken them. however, God paid the price for our sins by sacrificing himself. as Christ said, "I have not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it."

It kills me how these sorts of contentions aren't immediately realized as absurd by allegedly perfect creations of the mistake free deity. Supercedes laws of nature? Give me a fucking break. If I call my coffee cup a radio, it does not become a radio.

We're all damned. This God of yours... why in the fuck would any one want to be with him for all eternity? Creates us, damns us, and we're supposed to love this entity and desire eternal life with him? Fuck that. Kill me off and throw me away. If I'm damned upon creation, what the fuck difference does it make. Seems your mistake free God didn't think that one through if he later decided, "Shit. I didn't mean that, I guess I'll go be Jesus and save these folks I already created to be damned"

You say, "we're all damned because we've broken the law" and I think you'd have to concede Jesus' "gift" pre-dates my existence. Yes? Thus we must be talking about some sort of "natural" sin that exists in me by my very being.... yes? Your "perfect" mistake free God didn't do a very good job if his best creation was sinful (and again, we're talking about some sort of natural sin here), when we assume also that sin is something God doesn't like.

Likewise, assuming that Jesus (God) died for the since I'd commit later and not some "natural sin" present in me by my very beaing, then please explain to me how the hell could I ever sin? Assuming I even could, how the hell would such a sin have any meaning if I'm to believe Jeus died for me? If I kill you, I've already been forgiven - by this gift of Jesus.... assuming I accept Jesus, of course. So, what's the point in having any law at all.

Fact is, in your view, either your God isn't as perfect and mistake free as you claim, or upon the "gift" of Jesus, we don't have any reason to follow his law as we've been pre-saved.

Yeah... fuck that. I take responsibility for my own actions.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

With respect, if one requires salvation, then by definition one cannot secure one's own. And if one can secure one's own, then one is not in need of salvation.

The core meaning is complete, absolute wholeness in every aspect of personhood.

That sounds like pure unadulteraded garbage to me.

 

[buckeyegrad]

That sounds like pure unadulteraded garbage to me.

Which part? That one needs salvation (which from past discussions with you I assume you don't believe is necessary), or that one can secure his own salvation?

 

[lvbuckeye]

Yeah... I guess.... I still prefer to take responsibility for my own actions, sin and salvation. Means more to me if I do it myself rather than defer to some dude nailed to a piece of wood.

do you understand the concept involved here? everyone is going to take responsibility for their own actions. no one can save themselves. the fact that no one can save themselves, yet we are still given an opportunity at salvation is why it's called a GIFT.

what you are doing is akin to a death row inmate receiving a pardon and turning it down.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Most Muslims as I understand don't consider him a practicing Muslim for reasons such as this from the link:

Give me a break. You know why expert testimony is ridiculous? Because you can always find an expert to spout off whatever view you need for whatever purpose. Hussein was a muslim raised in a muslim country which he later lead. While there are CERTAINLY other muslims who disagree with him and say "he's not a real muslim" it's just as easy for me to say, tbuckeyescott isn't a real christian. Who are people to believe? Me? You?

Yes and he also told him not to.

Ah, that prankster the Lord on High. I suppose this same God who killed the first born sons of Egypt has a problem with Killing, and that's why he called Abraham off.

Your God sure seems inconsistent. Is he the same one as LVs?

See God gave us this Book we call the Bible. With this book I could take a look at what people say God said to them and compare it to this Book. Since the New Testament definately never espouses any kind of violence towards anyone from another human being we could very well say that Joe Douchebag had not got his message from God. That has nothing to do with my opinion. Oh and I absolutely believe God speaks to people today. I just expect that it wouldn't contradict the Book He gave us.

I see. God didn't give us the Old Test then? Moses pulling our legs when he says that "the Word" was given to him in one long string for him to write down. He just full of shit? The New Test's desire for peace supercedes the Old Law? Please, I need to know.

Likewise, considering your contentions on the New Test. and violence, how the fuck can it be that any "Christian" would also support what we're doing in Iraq? The killing of Hussein? The Death Penalty?

Oh.... right.. we have to realy on the Old Test. for that. Very confusing. God sure didn't do a very good job of explaining himself. And, in line with the whole original sin discussion above, I can't see any reason to be with this bastard forever. Creates me as a sinner, gives me no reason to believe in him, intentionally tries to confuse me by giving me seperate and conflicting messages regarding peace, and seems to be perfectly happy damning people at the first opportunity. You like that God? You can have him. I'll stick with my God who doesn't trouble himself with all this petty crap and just is.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

do you understand the concept involved here? everyone is going to take responsibility for their own actions. no one can save themselves. the fact that no one can save themselves, yet we are still given an opportunity at salvation is why it's called a GIFT.

what you are doing is akin to a death row inmate receiving a pardon and turning it down.

Whatever. I explained why youf gift analysis fails.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Which part? That one needs salvation (which from past discussions with you I assume you don't believe is necessary), or that one can secure his own salvation?

The whole of it. I don't comprehend this God of yours that creates me to be damned. You can have him.

 

[Jagdaddy]

On the other hand, the religious person (Christian or other) who follows a moral code they believe to be established by a Divine Creator is following something greater than themselves. Unfortunately, this is often done out of fear in many religions, but if it is done out of love for God (as occurs in mature Christians), then you have achieved morality at a state of others-gratification.

Well, you've established that Nietzschke didn't understand people.

This sounds nice in theory. When believers actually start to behave substantially better than non-believers in this world let me know.

My problem with most religions has always been their insistence that human beings are shit.

 

[Brewtus]

you are absolutely 100% incorrect, because your understanding of liquification is sorely lacking. do this experiment. get a large jug. in this jug place water, sand, leaves, grass, small rocks, larger stones, dead bugs, dead frogs, dead birds, and dead rodents. slosh the jug back and forth for a few weeks. a steady rocking motion, such as waves on a beach would be perfect. what do you suppose that mix will look like when you finally stop rocking the jug? all mixed up? i highly doubt it. the materials would end up in layers according to their density. the Bible doesn't explain it. but SCIENCE does.

The funny thing is that the fossil record isn't sorted by density, instead there is a continuity in the fossil record that indicates a gradual change in species over time. There is no continuity if you focus on only size or density. Why don't we find in the same rock strata fossils of dinosaurs and mammals that are the same size? Or why aren't all fish species found in the same rock strata? Evidence is what led to the idea of evolution, not some goal to discredit religion.

 

[lvbuckeye]

Give me a break. You know why expert testimony is ridiculous? Because you can always find an expert to spout off whatever view you need for whatever purpose. Hussein was a muslim raised in a muslim country which he later lead. While there are CERTAINLY other muslims who disagree with him and say "he's not a real muslim" it's just as easy for me to say, tbuckeyescott isn't a real christian. Who are people to believe? Me? You?


Ah, that prankster the Lord on High. I suppose this same God who killed the first born sons of Egypt has a problem with Killing, and that's why he called Abraham off.

Your God sure seems inconsistent. Is he the same one as LVs?


I see. God didn't give us the Old Test then? Moses pulling our legs when he says that "the Word" was given to him in one long string for him to write down. He just full of shit? The New Test's desire for peace supercedes the Old Law? Please, I need to know.

Likewise, considering your contentions on the New Test. and violence, how the fuck can it be that any "Christian" would also support what we're doing in Iraq? The killing of Hussein? The Death Penalty?

Oh.... right.. we have to realy on the Old Test. for that. Very confusing. God sure didn't do a very good job of explaining himself. And, in line with the whole original sin discussion above, I can't see any reason to be with this bastard forever. Creates me as a sinner, gives me no reason to believe in him, intentionally tries to confuse me by giving me seperate and conflicting messages regarding peace, and seems to be perfectly happy damning people at the first opportunity. You like that God? You can have him. I'll stick with my God who doesn't trouble himself with all this petty crap and just is.

stop. all you are demonstrating is your ignorance. you evidently haven't ever read the Bible for yourself, and are just making rash asspumptions and twisting people's words.

 

[Bleed S & G]

I see. God didn't give us the Old Test then? Moses pulling our legs when he says that "the Word" was given to him in one long string for him to write down. He just full of shit? The New Test's desire for peace supercedes the Old Law? Please, I need to know.

Likewise, considering your contentions on the New Test. and violence, how the fuck can it be that any "Christian" would also support what we're doing in Iraq? The killing of Hussein? The Death Penalty?

No true "Christian" could.. because Christ wouldn't. A true christian would turn the other cheek and wish love upon his enemies. There aren't too many of these people around today - see the indigo & crystal children who are now entering this realm and represent the next step in human evolution and in general, consitent with the end of times, where this world is going..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_children

This whole relgion thing is quite simple, its all about love. Regaurdless of what God did, who are we (man) to judge God?

 

[lvbuckeye]

The funny thing is that the fossil record isn't sorted by density, instead there is a continuity in the fossil record that indicates a gradual change in species over time. There is no continuity if you focus on only size or density. Why don't we find in the same rock strata fossils of dinosaurs and mammals that are the same size? Or why aren't all fish species found in the same rock strata? Evidence is what led to the idea of evolution, not some goal to discredit religion.

umm... FYI, in China in 2002 they unearthed a fossilized mammal with a dinosaur in its stomach.