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Defending yourself in your home

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FKAGobucks877;1176963; said:
I completely understand where BKB is coming from, and don't have a problem with his personal choice to not own a gun. I have a huge problem with my A-hole neighbor MaxBuck :wink2: telling me I can't own one. Guess what? It isn't your call. It's mine.

Also, for crying out loud, stop crying about the accidental shooting bullshit. It's rare, and (at least in my opinion) is WAY donw on the list of shit to fix. I'm going to start with the stuff that's a lot higher on the list.
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Seems to me the accidental shooting is relevant to the discussion to the extent that the number of accidental gun deaths exceeds the number of deaths from having your house burglarized.

I was looking in to this a little and trying to dig up some numbers and I saw a pro-gun site talking about how few accidental gun deaths there are, and how more kids die as a result of car wrecks, etc. than guns.

In fact, here is the quote:
To understand why, consider first how many accidental gun deaths occur in the U.S. In 1995 there were 1,400 such deaths. Just 200 of those involved children under 15. In comparison, 2,900 children died in motor vehicle crashes, 950 children drowned, and more than 1,000 children died from fire and burns. Hundreds more children die in bicycle accidents every year than die from all types of firearms accidents.
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Source.

The reader is left with the impression that 200 accidental deaths from guns pales in comparison to car crashes, which of course is true... but... it doesn't contemplate the insanely HIGH number of car rides chidren took which did not result in any deaths. In other words, the raw numbers don't really establish the point attempting to be established.

The real question, I think, is did more children die nationally as a result of break-ins? (To the extent that break-ins are the justification for gun ownership, as seems to be the case on this thread (though I'm sure not the universal reason))
 
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BuckeyeRyn;1176961; said:
Binomial distributions or boobies.... hmmm... definitely a no-brainer, even for me.
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Granted....but bimodal distributions can look like boobs...kind of....

Bimodal.png
 
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The reader is left with the impression that 200 accidental deaths from guns pales in comparison to car crashes, which of course is true... but... it doesn't contemplate the insanely HIGH number of car rides chidren took which did not result in any deaths. In other words, the raw numbers don't really establish the point attempting to be established.
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Keeping it in perspective. Firearms account for roughly 0.1% of accidental deaths for adolescents. 99.9% die by other means.

If you're trying to argue the public health angle do you normally go after one of the smallest contributors?


The real question, I think, is did more children die nationally as a result of break-ins?
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But it's not binary question. If you are going to start arguing it as a one-to-one case then you have to start including the number of crimes that are interrupted by private citizens using firearms each year.

Depending on which study you want to believe (and there's been a dozen or so) that number ranges between 800,000 & 3 Million...per year.


(To the extent that break-ins are the justification for gun ownership, as seems to be the case on this thread (though I'm sure not the universal reason))
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The thread isn't about using the threat of crime against your property as an excuse to own firearms. It's about how people respond under such circumstanches.

Owning a firearm is a Constitionally guaranteed right, it requires no justification.
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1176967; said:
The real question, I think, is did more children die nationally as a result of break-ins? (To the extent that break-ins are the justification for gun ownership, as seems to be the case on this thread (though I'm sure not the universal reason))
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Certainly not the universal reason.

But, having said that...

Even if you had the numbers of "Accidents" vs. "Break-ins" its not necessarily a good number...

Not to make this like Mufflerdragon's vaccination thread... but... BKB, as a non-gunowner in a society where such ownership is legal, you are somewhat of a "free-rider."

You don't have guns in your home, but, you might, right?
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1176967; said:
Seems to me the accidental shooting is relevant to the discussion to the extent that the number of accidental gun deaths exceeds the number of deaths from having your house burglarized.

I was looking in to this a little and trying to dig up some numbers and I saw a pro-gun site talking about how few accidental gun deaths there are, and how more kids die as a result of car wrecks, etc. than guns.

In fact, here is the quote:

Source.

The reader is left with the impression that 200 accidental deaths from guns pales in comparison to car crashes, which of course is true... but... it doesn't contemplate the insanely HIGH number of car rides chidren took which did not result in any deaths. In other words, the raw numbers don't really establish the point attempting to be established.

The real question, I think, is did more children die nationally as a result of break-ins? (To the extent that break-ins are the justification for gun ownership, as seems to be the case on this thread (though I'm sure not the universal reason))
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My attempt to "justify" gun ownership has little to do with home defense. I am (obviously) an advocate of the home defense argument, but I have only ever aimed my firearm at one other human being...and that was when my brother unexpectedly showed up at my house with his girlfriend, thinking I was out of town. No harm was done, because I'm responsible. I know many would say, gee, how close did you come to shooting him? That would never have happened if you didn't own a weapon. Bullshit. I would have come just as close to killing him with a baseball bat, knife, or whatever else in the same situation.

Muck;1176990; said:
Keeping it in perspective. Firearms account for roughly 0.1% of accidental deaths for adolescents. 99.9% die by other means.

If you're trying to argue the public health angle do you normally go after one of the smallest contributors?

But it's not a zero sum game. If you are going to start arguing it as a one-to-one case then you have to start including the number of crimes that are interrupted by private citizens using firearms each year.

Depending on which study you want to believe (and there's been a dozen or so) that number ranges between 800,000 & 3 Million...per year.

The thread isn't about using the threat of crime against your property as an excuse to own firearms. It's about how people respond under such circumstanches.

Owning a firearm is a Constitionally guaranteed right, it requires no justification.
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This last statement is the crux of my argument. Neither you or anyone else has the right to tell me whether or not I can own a weapon. What I find laughable is the people that tell me I shouldn't own a weapon so that nobody is accidentally shot with my weapon. Nobody ever has been, and I can confidently state that nobody ever will be. I cannot say the same for whether or not some drunk driver is going to plow into my wife on her way home from work tomorrow. I just don't understand why there is so much emphasis on such a minor issue. Drunks kill people virtually every day in this country...why don't we outlaw alcohol? I know it is a vast minority of drinkers that take lives, but don't we want to save every life? If my child were to "accidentally" be killed, there is a 99.9% chance (according to these statistics) that it won't be from a gun. And further, I control the guns.

Again, a personal choice (BKB) is one thing. But don't come into my house and tell me what I can or can't do, or what I can or can't own. I will own a gun, and I will spank my child when he is disobedient. End of story. Big government needs to stay the hell out of my home.

AKAKBUCK;1176992; said:
Not to make this like Mufflerdragon's vaccination thread... but... BKB, as a non-gunowner in a society where such ownership is legal, you are somewhat of a "free-rider."

You don't have guns in your home, but, you might, right?
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The point is, he could if he wanted. And I respect his choice not to.
 
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Muck;1176944; said:
You spelled "ignorant prejudice" incorrectly. ...

Firearm ownership rises along with income. Those po'folks you're making fun of are statistically less likely to own firearms than the Rockefellers next door.
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First of all, I'm not making fun of poor people. I'm making fun of handgun owners. Get it right.:wink2:

Second, my commentary relative to demographics was not relative to income or wealth; it has simply to do with the fact that people in my neighborhood (and yes, I know that my next-door neighbors are not handgun owners) are not likely to own handguns. I've lived in neighborhoods of similar (or even higher) income levels where I'd guess 80% plus of the residents owned handguns. Income is a poor predictor when it comes to gun ownership, I'm well aware.

I think owning handguns for self-protection is, quite frankly, stupid, but I admit to having no morbidity/mortality data whatsoever to back that opinion. But I will say that I know far more people who have been affected by gun accidents than by gun crime. And I know that cops in Ohio are more likely to be shot accidentally by themselves or a colleague than by a perp. So at least my view is supported anecdotally.

Finally, my opinions on wisdom of handgun ownership aside, I sure do not favor draconian gun control measures; what we have in place right now seems to be quite enough.
 
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