DC Jim Knowles (Official Thread)

[buchtelgrad04]

What would you say’s last time we had an elite DE? Young?

An elite DE and an elite pass rusher are not mutually exclusive. I think JT is elite at everything except pass rushing. Same as Cam Heyward when he was here.

Not saying JT is as good as Cam Heyward. But he’s more Cam than he is Chase.

 

[buchtelgrad04]

he’s a septuagenarian, everything fades if given enough time

I’d say the mix of less talent (which is also his fault) and forgetting how to coach hit a tipping point sometime between Chase Young leaving and now

Also, similarly to the writing being on the wall for Studrawa when Day brought in RPO concepts that he openly complained about in interviews, I think the introduction of Knowles really accelerated the deterioration of LJ Sr.’s effectiveness… because he doesn’t know how to balance an effective pass rush with gap responsibilities, and he openly dislikes the Jack position, probably because it complicates gap responsibilities for the rest of the down linemen

“He doesn’t know how to balance an effective pass rush with gap responsibilities” is pretty funny. So all these years of being a DL coach, he’s only coached one or the other? So when the Bosas or Chase or Hubbard or anybody he’s coached that was a great pass rusher, did he not coach them gap responsibility too? You don’t forget. My issue is the players display limited moves. It’s either a spin move or a bull rush. Kenyatta Jackson is the only person I’ve seen use a jab step while rushing the passer. He won the rep, the QB just got the ball out quick.

When you get a chance, go back and watch the starters. They don’t have great bend and they round off at the top of their rush which takes them longer to get to the QB. You can’t teach players with their body types to bend more.

And the Jack position doesn’t complicate gap responsibility for the DL. It doesn’t change for them. Knowles has spoken about this for a while now. My assumption why LJ doesn’t like it is because the Jack has to come from his room, until they get a dedicated body for it.

 

[Buckeye86]

“He doesn’t know how to balance an effective pass rush with gap responsibilities” is pretty funny. So all these years of being a DL coach, he’s only coached one or the other? So when the Bosas or Chase or Hubbard or anybody he’s coached that was a great pass rusher, did he not coach them gap responsibility too?

Using examples from a decade ago doesn’t really refute my point that he has lost his ability to be effective now.

I’ll use the more recent example of the ‘20 and ‘21 season when, under Coombs, the DL wildly rushed up the field on every play and were constantly out of position and giving up big runs.

LJ Sr. can’t strike the right balance anymore in how he coaches his players, whether he is telling them they need to go after the quarterback under Coombs or telling them they need to control their gaps under Knowles—just like he can’t seem to strike the right balance of playing third stringers too much last season versus not rotating his DEs at all against ND this year.

Regarding ‘bend’ as a part of the pass rush, I agree, JT and Sawyer are basically the same player—they are both prototypical strong side DEs. They should be rotating with each other on the strong side while Jackson and Curry bring some flash and ‘bend’ opposite them.

This is yet another way Johnson is failing to contribute to Ohio State being elite on defense.

And the Jack position doesn’t complicate gap responsibility for the DL. It doesn’t change for them. Knowles has spoken about this for a while now. My assumption why LJ doesn’t like it is because the Jack has to come from his room, until they get a dedicated body for it.

Having the Jack bounce around pre-snap to confuse the oline absolutely requires that the rest of the dline think more about their responsibility on that play compared to if they were all lining up in the same place on every play like they do now.

Even if it’s just “the Jack is outside of me on this play, I’ve got the b gap and he’s got c gap, now the Jack is on the inside of me on this play, he’s got b gap and I’ve got c gap,” much less “he’s lined up inside but he’s rushing outside,” or “he’s lined up outside me but rushing inside” etc..

 

[buchtelgrad04]

Using examples from a decade ago doesn’t really refute my point that he has lost his ability to be effective now.

I’ll use the more recent example of the ‘20 and ‘21 season when, under Coombs, the DL wildly rushed up the field on every play and were constantly out of position and giving up big runs.

LJ Sr. can’t strike the right balance anymore in how he coaches his players, whether he is telling them they need to go after the quarterback under Coombs or telling them they need to control their gaps under Knowles—just like he can’t seem to strike the right balance of playing third stringers too much last season versus not rotating his DEs at all against ND this year.

Regarding ‘bend’ as a part of the pass rush, I agree, JT and Sawyer are basically the same player—they are both prototypical strong side DEs. They should be rotating with each other on the strong side while Jackson and Curry bring some flash and ‘bend’ opposite them.

This is yet another way Johnson is failing to contribute to Ohio State being elite on defense.


Having the Jack bounce around pre-snap to confuse the oline absolutely requires that the rest of the dline think more about their responsibility on that play compared to if they were all lining up in the same place on every play like they do now.

Even if it’s just “the Jack is outside of me on this play, I’ve got the b gap and he’s got c gap, now the Jack is on the inside of me on this play, he’s got b gap and I’ve got c gap,” much less “he’s lined up inside but he’s rushing outside,” or “he’s lined up outside me but rushing inside” etc..

A lot of what you said is true. I just don’t agree that “he can’t strike a balance between rushing the passer and gap responsibilities.” That’s not some complex thing to teach. Other players flash when rushing the passer. Who in the last 2 years do you feel like should’ve been a dominant pass rusher for OSU? Who had the skill set or the play style to be that guy we’re all looking for? The DE’s are doing everything but pass rushing. They just aren’t the guys we thought they were as pass rushers. But I never thought JT would be a dominant pass rushing guy. He wasn’t even that in high school.

The only prototypical pass rushing DE is Jackson. I don’t know about Joshua Mickens enough yet. But he has the body type.

As far as the Jack goes, they actually simplify things. He either shoots the gap of the puller, spies, or plays a single gap like everybody. Knowles constantly talked about how the Jack is just a read/react guy. It doesn’t complicate anything for anyone. That just sounds like something said because people know there’s a bit of friction between Knowles and LJ.

 

[Buckeye86]

As far as the Jack goes, they actually simplify things. He either shoots the gap of the puller, spies, or plays a single gap like everybody. Knowles constantly talked about how the Jack is just a read/react guy. It doesn’t complicate anything for anyone. That just sounds like something said because people know there’s a bit of friction between Knowles and LJ.

This brings me to another point/criticism… in Knowles’s “Jack” system, that is the player that’s supposed to get after the quarterback while the other guys play fundamentally sound and focus more on their responsibilities instead of busting an inside move to get the QB when they need to set the edge.

So taking that away results in four guys across the line focusing on their responsibilities and losing the freedom to focus on getting to the QB.

So whether it is fundamentally undermining the scheme by eliminating the Jack or a failure to teach the best technique/awareness/whatever in the scheme, it’s still a question of whether Johnson is contributing to an elite defense or holding it back, and I think it’s pretty clear that he’s holding it back in one way or the other, and most likely some combination of both.

 

[buchtelgrad04]

This brings me to another point/criticism… in Knowles’s “Jack” system, that is the player that’s supposed to get after the quarterback while the other guys play fundamentally sound and focus more on their responsibilities instead of busting an inside move to get the QB when they need to set the edge.

So taking that away results in four guys across the line focusing on their responsibilities and losing the freedom to focus on getting to the QB.

So whether it is fundamentally undermining the scheme by eliminating the Jack or a failure to teach the best technique/awareness/whatever in the scheme, it’s still a question of whether Johnson is contributing to an elite defense or holding it back, and I think it’s pretty clear that he’s holding it back in one way or the other, and most likely some combination of both.

I’m not sure Johnson is a fan of the “spill and kill” defensive philosophy. It effectively takes the DL out of the play. A lot of times, the DE’s job is simply to crash inside to leave players in the second level unblocked. It’s unconventional and cuts the opportunities for plays by the DL, but that doesn’t explain away the pass rushing failures by DE.

The overall point remains, that we agree on tho. We don’t know why the DE’s aren’t getting there. But somebody needs to make something happen.

 

[buckeyebri]

Really enjoying the discussion @buchtelgrad04 and @Buckeye86. I’m not sure I understand the Jack position. Is this individual a tweener DE/LB? Do they play all downs or are they situational?

It seems to Michigan built a blueprint to beat this team/defense and ND used it. Maybe I’m old school, but it seems like a 3-4 is a better fit for these games?

 

[buchtelgrad04]

Really enjoying the discussion @buchtelgrad04 and @Buckeye86. I’m not sure I understand the Jack position. Is this individual a tweener DE/LB? Do they play all downs or are they situational?

It seems to Michigan built a blueprint to beat this team/defense and ND used it. Maybe I’m old school, but it seems like a 3-4 is a better fit for these games?

The Jack position (or LEO as he called it at Ok. State) depends on how it’s deployed. Some plays it’s a guy on the edge either rushing or they drop him into coverage. Or it’s a guy in the middle of the defense creating an extra level that the offense has to account for.

See the below video for a quick breakdown of the basics. Also makes mention of how Knowles likes to have his DE’s crash inside of the OT.

 

[Bestbuck36]

The statement that "this Dline just doesn't get any pressure" is totally false. If you said they don't get any sacks, I would stipulate to that fact. If we were ever to get holding calls against other Olines, we could possibly hold some team to negative total yardage. However, the team with the highest rate of QB pressure for this current football year, 2023 is...The Ohio State Buckeyes according to PFF and premium stats used to calculate this information.

The Spill and Kill is risky and the interior Dline often disappear from the game which frustrates the shit out of most Buckeye fans because they are just taking up blockers and closing gaps in the middle while LBs and Safeties flow outside the DE to make plays. Those guys we've seen can be dominant but thats not their roles in the defense unfortunately. What I will say for the past two years is, the edge is being set way better than it was prior to that, especially Jack Sawyer. He sets the edge hard and usually turns the play back in which is the traditional way to play DE in a 4-3. JT is the one that sometimes rushes himself past the play leaving a hole which needs to be filled immediately.

I'm 100% more confident in the Defense this season than I was last season and the season before that, mainly because our corners are playing pissed off. So, blitz if you have to, run the zone blitz but teach people to not stand in the same damn spot when someone comes into your zone. Clarify, "you have all of the people who come in your zone. Go guard them, not a patch of grass!" Otherwise man up and bring the fucking Silver Bullets!

Just held two of the most prolific passing attacks to under 400 yards and 2 TDs in back to back weeks. I'm feeling pretty good about that.

 

[Captain Buckeye]

Can’t ask for any more than holding a a serious opponent to 14. The lack of big explosive plays was huge. The interior DL is tough as hell.

Those 14 coming on long time consuming drives that are up most of the second half is concerning. What if ND had a better game plan and ran that way in the first half? What if they gave it to their bowling ball RB instead of the QB twice on 4th down?

Hopefully this ND offensive line is the best we see all year because Harbaugh won’t make the mistakes Freeman made.

And it is the best OL we will face.

Sawyer even stated as such.

Michigan replaced their transfers with transfers not as good. They’re still obviously a good OL but they aren’t what they were last year.

 

[Dryden]

Ohio State has held each of their first five opponents to 17 points or less for the first time since 2007.

 

[RB07OSU]

Ohio State has held each of their first five opponents to 17 points or less for the first time since 2007.

I am going to say great job overall on the defensive improvement, boys on that side are playing lights out and are the biggest reason for the last couple of wins. But if we ever face a QB like that again and don't regularly spy him, I will absolutely flip my shit. Once we finally made that adjustment (which should have been the initial game plan), we shut them down.

 

[pnuts34]

Knowles is certainly earning his money so far this year! Great adjustments

 

[OregonBuckeye]

Ohio State has held each of their first five opponents to 17 points or less for the first time since 2007.

Very fitting because this D is a near mirror image of that one. Dependable secondary play that limits explosive plays, but a pedestrian DL that gets gashed consistently for 4-7 yard runs and only has one DE that provides flashes of greatness. They're good enough to give us a chance in the B1G but not NC-good, imo. The DL has to be better

 

[NJ-Buckeye]

The OL and LBs should have to carry all the books and laptops of the DBs to every class until further notice