College Playoff

[Oh8ch]

This is my trans-fat thread. I know it is bad for me, but I can't leave it alone. Every time I open it I feel like my head will explode. Such a lack of appreciation for the tradition that makes CFB great. Such rabid interest in bizarre solutions that will break something that does not need fixing.

Are there really people out there who believe we wont know who the best team is unless WV gets into the same playoff as LSU?

I read over and over again that CFB is the only sport that doesn't have some sort of expansive playoff, thus proving CFB just doesn't get it. Are there really folks who think divisions and wild cards were established to make sure the best team was crowned champ?

Playoffs were created and have expanded to generate fan interest. To keep more teams in the race until the last minute so more tires could be sold. To draw fans into the playoffs who don't have enough interest to pay attention during the regular season. Do folks really believe MLB sat back and said "We wont know for sure who is best unless we include the Florida Marlins". Marlins weren't the best. Weren't even close. But they got hot during a little tournament and get to wear the sash.

If the NFL season ended today the Packers would be in the playoffs along with some five loss teams like the Cowboys, Bears and Lions. Can I see the hands of everyone who needs a playoff to determine if the Packers are better than any of those teams? You folks go watch the FedEx cup or some other derived nonsense. You know, one of those events where they keep changing the rules until it is certain nobody can run away with the championship because that would turn viewers off.

The problem with the NYG isn't that they won the Super Bowl, it is that they were allowed to compete for it in the first place.

If you want a playoff because you think it would be fun and exciting I can't argue - that would be a certain outcome. But please stop arguing that it is needed to determine the "best team".

If you look at the BCS standings it is overwhelmingly clear that three teams stand above the rest. This is true in every human poll and the consensus computer polls. It is perfectly reasonable to argue that the best team in the nation is one of those three. It is certainly more reasonable than to argue it is one of those three or WV or Wisconsin.

Plus one I can live with. But once you have a pool that is highly likely to include the best team in the nation adding teams to a playoff makes it LESS likely that the best team will win. That is not an opinion - it is a mathematical fact.

 

[FCollinsBuckeye]

This is my trans-fat thread. I know it is bad for me, but I can't leave it alone. Every time I open it I feel like my head will explode. Such a lack of appreciation for the tradition that makes CFB great. Such rabid interest in bizarre solutions that will break something that does not need fixing.

Are there really people out there who believe we wont know who the best team is unless WV gets into the same playoff as LSU?

I read over and over again that CFB is the only sport that doesn't have some sort of expansive playoff, thus proving CFB just doesn't get it. Are there really folks who think divisions and wild cards were established to make sure the best team was crowned champ?

Playoffs were created and have expanded to generate fan interest. To keep more teams in the race until the last minute so more tires could be sold. To draw fans into the playoffs who don't have enough interest to pay attention during the regular season. Do folks really believe MLB sat back and said "We wont know for sure who is best unless we include the Florida Marlins". Marlins weren't the best. Weren't even close. But they got hot during a little tournament and get to wear the sash.

If the NFL season ended today the Packers would be in the playoffs along with some five loss teams like the Cowboys, Bears and Lions. Can I see the hands of everyone who needs a playoff to determine if the Packers are better than any of those teams? You folks go watch the FedEx cup or some other derived nonsense. You know, one of those events where they keep changing the rules until it is certain nobody can run away with the championship because that would turn viewers off.

The problem with the NYG isn't that they won the Super Bowl, it is that they were allowed to compete for it in the first place.

If you want a playoff because you think it would be fun and exciting I can't argue - that would be a certain outcome. But please stop arguing that it is needed to determine the "best team".

If you look at the BCS standings it is overwhelmingly clear that three teams stand above the rest. This is true in every human poll and the consensus computer polls. It is perfectly reasonable to argue that the best team in the nation is one of those three. It is certainly more reasonable than to argue it is one of those three or WV or Wisconsin.

Plus one I can live with. But once you have a pool that is highly likely to include the best team in the nation adding teams to a playoff makes it LESS likely that the best team will win. That is not an opinion - it is a mathematical fact.

 

[OH10]

This is my trans-fat thread. I know it is bad for me, but I can't leave it alone. Every time I open it I feel like my head will explode. Such a lack of appreciation for the tradition that makes CFB great. Such rabid interest in bizarre solutions that will break something that does not need fixing.

It used to be a great tradition. I remember waking up on New Year's Day and I would be flooded with bowl games. But now television and money have taken over. The BCS Championship is played a week later. The Fiesta Bowl and Sugar Bowl are played days later. We get the Rose Bowl and the pu pu platter on New Year's Day. Even the Orange Bowl sucks now because its usually #15 vs. #21 is some meaningless matchup.

Its a nothing tradition now. It is designed to make the most amount of money possible for suits who continue to feed us the same old line that they care about the student-athlete... and too many people eat it right up like its a large Donato's pizza.

Are there really people out there who believe we wont know who the best team is unless WV gets into the same playoff as LSU?

See, that's where you get it wrong. I don't care to find out who is the "best team." Its a pointless pursuit. Most teams (especially college teams built on young talent) have an Achilles Heal that can be exploited. Any team can lose. I want the last team standing at the culmination, which in most sports is a playoff postseason rather than one game whose only two participants are determined by an overvalued and incomplete regular season.

I read over and over again that CFB is the only sport that doesn't have some sort of expansive playoff, thus proving CFB just doesn't get it. Are there really folks who think divisions and wild cards were established to make sure the best team was crowned champ?

They were created to add to the entertainment value of the sport. No one cares about bowl games anymore. They lack legitimacy. ESPN has to create this conference identity competition and confidence value points to try and generate interest in a system that has none. Most people ulimately watch two bowl games: 1) The one their school is in; and 2) The BCS Championship. I'll probably only watch one this year and this is coming from someone who never misses an NFL playoff game and is glued to the television during the NCAA tournament watching as many games as possible.

Point blank: Bowl games suck. Selfishly, I want something more interesting.

Plus one I can live with. But once you have a pool that is highly likely to include the best team in the nation adding teams to a playoff makes it LESS likely that the best team will win. That is not an opinion - it is a mathematical fact.

The problem with your reasoning is that you're assuming 1) its about the mythical pursuit of the "best team"; and 2) that an upset in a playoff is worse than an upset in a regular season. Because let's face it, an upset in the regular season generally has the effect of eliminating a team from the discussion of "best team."

 

[zincfinger]

It used to be a great tradition. I remember waking up on New Year's Day and I would be flooded with bowl games. But now television and money have taken over. The BCS Championship is played a week later. The Fiesta Bowl and Sugar Bowl are played days later. We get the Rose Bowl and the pu pu platter on New Year's Day. Even the Orange Bowl sucks now because its usually #15 vs. #21 is some meaningless matchup.

Its a nothing tradition now...

I guess that's one argument in favor of a college football playoff. "The BCS has already lessened the traditions of college football, with little-to-no reward. What's say we double down on that with the expectation it will make everything right?"

Come to think of it, that's pretty much THE argument in favor of a playoff, isn't it?

 

[OH10]

I guess that's one argument in favor of a college football playoff. "The BCS has already lessened the traditions of college football, with little-to-no reward. What's say we double down on that with the expectation it will make everything right?"

Come to think of it, that's pretty much THE argument in favor of a playoff, isn't it?

Its one of many. My favorite argument is that bowl games suck and playoffs are fun. But go with it.

 

[zincfinger]

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Its one of many. My favorite argument is that bowl games suck and playoffs are fun. But go with it.

The BCS has already watered down the traditional bowl games, so let's kill off tradition altogether in the quest for a "fair system" and holy grail playoff. Let's kick out a B10 founding member in order to let Ball State in because they rode some once in a lifetime qb recruit and strung three 10 win seasons together.

BTW, under this relegation bullcrap, who gets the Big Ten money? Ball State or Indiana? Oh sorry IU, looks like you're going to have to gut your Olympic Sports programs because Ball State is taking your paycheck now.

Oh wait. Conference earnings won't matter since we'll have adopted a system where ALL television and attendance money is thrown into a pot and divided equally. After all, if we're really going to truly have a fair system where everyone is allowed to compete for a NC, we need to do it right!

 

[BB73]

The BCS has already watered down the traditional bowl games, so let's kill off tradition altogether in the quest for a "fair system" and holy grail playoff. Let's kick out a B10 founding member in order to let Ball State in because they rode some once in a lifetime qb recruit and strung three 10 win seasons together.

BTW, under this relegation bullcrap, who gets the Big Ten money? Ball State or Indiana? Oh sorry IU, looks like you're going to have to gut your Olympic Sports programs because Ball State is taking your paycheck now.

Oh wait. Conference earnings won't matter since we'll have adopted a system where ALL television and attendance money is thrown into a pot and divided equally. After all, if we're really going to truly have a fair system where everyone is allowed to compete for a NC, we need to do it right!

 

[OH10]

The BCS has already watered down the traditional bowl games, so let's kill off tradition altogether in the quest for a "fair system" and holy grail playoff. Let's kick out a B10 founding member in order to let Ball State in because they rode some once in a lifetime qb recruit and strung three 10 win seasons together.

Yeah, so I never suggested relegation. I skipped that post because it was stupid.

All I've said is 4 is better than 2; a playoff would be more entertaining than one title game and a bunch of meaningless games; and that the tradition argument died years ago.

 

[Mrstickball]

I would prefer the national champion be decided on the field, by a group of highly-ranked teams. Not pollisters. Not ESPN.

I think it'd be fair to every team that has been screwed over in the past few years.

If polling and a simple 1 v 2 game was the absolute answer, then why not do that for every other college sport? I mean, it'd be pretty simple to just have OSU play Kentucky at the end of the year and be done with it. Throw out other possibly great teams like North Carolina and Duke, since they've obviously lost once this year.

College football teams get 12 or at most 13 games to play and decide who is the best team in their conference. Then media, coaches and ESPN decide from 120+ teams which 2 get to be potentially crowned 'best college team in football'. I think that is a sham. Its a sham to Oklahoma St. this year. It was a sham to TCU last year. Its been a sham for one or two teams almost every year since the BCS was invented.

College football is about 'any given Saturday'. I agree. Any given one Saturday can screw over a fantastic team for the reason of their season and the rest of some coaches' careers. It needs to be a little bit more than that. College basketball proves why tournaments are needed: You rarely find #1 vs. #2 in a frequent enough manner to assume that the pollisters are right all the time. As ESPN continues their SEC bias, I truly question if we aren't going to see more and more SEC vs. SEC title games. I mean, they had Arkansas at #3 - and their crowning achievement has been a win against TAMU.

 

[HorseshoeFetish]

The problem with the NYG isn't that they won the Super Bowl, it is that they were allowed to compete for it in the first place.

If you want a playoff because you think it would be fun and exciting I can't argue - that would be a certain outcome. But please stop arguing that it is needed to determine the "best team".

I disagree about the NYG. Why is it you think they shouldn't be allowed to compete? They lived up to their end of the bargin. They won the NFC and defeated the patriots to win the Superbowl. They deserved to be there regardless of some superior team propoganda. The problem here is that by bringing it up you try to compare this to the NCAA. The fact that some preseason poll doesn't have a direct effect on who goes to the Superbowl is a big difference. The fact is throughout the years there have been plenty of teams that never got a shot at the national championship. I mean were Florida or Tennessee hands down the best teams in the country in 96 or 98? Maybe they were..but I think the Bucks might have made a decent opponent. And yes it would be exciting to have a playoff. But saying that a playoff is stupid because of wvu playing LSU is very short sighted. Determining the "best team" as you put it is not the reason a playoff is needed IMHO. The reason college football needs a playoff is to make sure that the best team doesn't get left out because of conferece affiliation, human ignorance, or media bias. Do I think LSU is hands down the best in college football this year? Probably. I also think the cowboys deserve their shot at them.

 

[FCollinsBuckeye]

College football teams get 12 or at most 13 games to play and decide who is the best team in their conference. Then media, coaches and ESPN decide from 120+ teams which 2 get to be potentially crowned 'best college team in football'. I think that is a sham.

And that is the rub. There's a reason many refer to it as the mNC. It's a myth. I see no real compelling reason to retool all of college football such that it can be 'settled on the field' every year. I was starting to warm up to the idea and even thought the relegation model made sense, but the fact is, that concept is a non-starter due to reasons spelled out above by BB73 and others.

And not to attack you, per se, Mrstickball (indeed many/most playoff proponents bring this up) but to draw parallels between March Madness and D1 football is ludicrous. You can pretty easily fly 15 guys around the country with sneakers and gym shorts and play ~3 bball games per week. Not so much with football, between the logistics and the physical toll the game takes each week I think too many are quick to add a few games/rounds to the equation in their attempt to create a tidy playoff system.

There's simply not a neat way to crown a winner in all of D1 football each year, given the histories and traditions currently in place. Any attempt to definatively do so (i.e. create minor league NFL) will destroy what has made CFB great over the past 120 years.

Further tweaking of the BCS and even going '+1' seems to be the most likely and equitable way to better iron things out. Anything beyond that goes too far imo.

 

[Oh8ch]

I disagree about the NYG. Why is it you think they shouldn't be allowed to compete? They lived up to their end of the bargin. They won the NFC and defeated the patriots to win the Superbowl. They deserved to be there regardless of some superior team propoganda. The problem here is that by bringing it up you try to compare this to the NCAA. The fact that some preseason poll doesn't have a direct effect on who goes to the Superbowl is a big difference. The fact is throughout the years there have been plenty of teams that never got a shot at the national championship. I mean were Florida or Tennessee hands down the best teams in the country in 96 or 98? Maybe they were..but I think the Bucks might have made a decent opponent. And yes it would be exciting to have a playoff. But saying that a playoff is stupid because of wvu playing LSU is very short sighted. Determining the "best team" as you put it is not the reason a playoff is needed IMHO. The reason college football needs a playoff is to make sure that the best team doesn't get left out because of conferece affiliation, human ignorance, or media bias. Do I think LSU is hands down the best in college football this year? Probably. I also think the cowboys deserve their shot at them.

Good post. You are correct about the Giants. They lost six games and finished second in their division. But the NFL isn't interested in crowning the best team for a particular season as the Champion. They play a 16 game schedule to qualify for a tournament. Then they crown the winner of that tournament the Super Bowl champ. That is fine. The tournament is a lot of fun to watch.

I did not mean to say that putting WV in a playoff was "stupid". Watching WV beat LSU and then arguing they are the best team in CFB for 2011 - that would be stupid.

I also agree that it is good to give everyone a chance at the title who has demonstrated themselves worthy. The Giants didn't do that, but as you point out they were operating under different rules with (I submit) a different goal. So our debate moves to who is worthy.

Some submit you become worthy by winning your conference, pretending away the obvious imbalance (established not just by pollsters, but by # of players in the NFL, coaches salaries, recruiting standings). Personally I like the "beauty contest" approach. A group of knowledgeable, unbiased pollsters select teams that merit consideration for the championship (the problem today being the presence of bias). This year IMO there is only one worthy team, but I would not argue with stretching it to 3. There are not 8 or 16 or even 4.

And now we move to the math portion of the issue, because here is where the playoff argument breaks down.

Let us say we were to pit a superior team against a "worthy opponent" and that said superior team was so good they would win 8 out of 10 times. That is pretty superior. 80% gets you 13 wins in the NFL and 130 win in MLB. Pretty impressive. Clearly deserving of a shot at the title.

Put that superior team in a NC game and they will probably win. As stated, 80% chance. But ask that team to play in a 4 game playoff and the chance they will come out on top drops to 64%. Make it 8 teams and we are right around 50%. Welcome Florida Marlins and New York Giants. So the more teams you add doesn't increase the chances of crowning the right princess. Rather it introduces a level of randomness that I am not a fan of.*

I don't watch much of the NFL regular season. Individual games there mean very little. But I was one of the folks who stayed up late to watch Iowa St beat Okie ST. I knew what was at stake. It was a great game in the vastly superior playoff system that CFB calls the regular season.


* To be clear, the chance of any single less superior team winning the championship also become smaller the more games are played. However, the chance that some less superior team will win grows as the total number of teams increases.

 

[HorseshoeFetish]

Personally I like the "beauty contest" approach. A group of knowledgeable, unbiased pollsters select teams that merit consideration for the championship (the problem today being the presence of bias). This year IMO there is only one worthy team, but I would not argue with stretching it to 3. There are not 8 or 16 or even 4.

As they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the wonder bra makes things seem larger than they appear. And I say bias runs rampant in college football. As I said I probably agree that LSU is the best team in the nation..right now. My problem is next year. Where and when will the bias start? Before anyone has ever played a down. With the meaningless yet all too important preseason poll. This is the biggest reason I feel there needs to be seperate polls. One for the BIG and whatever conferences..and one for the sec and whatever conferences.

I have no doubt that LSU and Alabama will start off next year in the top 5. Does anyone doubt it? I've been known to make a bet or two in my day and I'd be willing to bet that Washington is in the top 25 on Sept 8th next year. Have you seen the LSU schedule? I am also willing to bet they will be 5-0 to start next year. And in doing so will be talked about how awesome they are and that the train just keeps rollin in baton rouge. Does anyone know why the bulk of the schedule in the SEC has not been revealed as of yet? Fact is neither do I. It makes me wonder though if it has something to do with how best to help the top teams in the SEC. Of course the pac and the small12 are the same way. The BIG is the only conference that has most of if not all of their games already posted. Why do SEC teams seem to schedule an out of conference sacrificial lamb towards the end of the season? This is where I think the SEC out does the BIG.

This year isn't a good example and hopefully next year won't be for a different reason all together. Wouldn't it be beneficial for us to have a cupcake between PSU and tsun? I mean heaven forbid we ever again lose to either of these teams in the same season again but wouldn't that buffer victory look better in the pollsters eyes? Not so much for the buckeyes mind you but both PSU and tsun. Sure we might drop after the PSU loss but a win against a cuppie and a loss by a team higher than us brings us back up in the standings before the tsun game, hence better for tsun.

Now if that seems off topic I apoligize but my point is that while you can say LSU is the best team right now, this year whatever, the fact remains that bama lost to them..and then scheduled georgia southern as a game to keep them from a possible 2nd loss in a row not to mention a breather before auburn. I figure at this point I'm either out of my mind, or I'm on to something. Either way I think that the BIG needs to start scheduling the same way asap. What does all of this have to do with a playoff you might ask.

I'll say it now..An 11-1 BIG team is in the same boat as oOSU or an undefeated Boise St. team we are on the outside looking in at this point in time. And I'll ask again..If TOSU, Tex, ND, Oregon, maybe a Miami or FSU, and LSU or BAMA or Georgia all go undefeated in a single season what do you think our chances of playing for the NC game will be? I'm saying 20% and that went up because of Coach Meyer. Is it probable that all of these teams go undefeated..I'll say no..But it is possible and under the current way of doing things there is no good way for it to end.

While this story can't gush about the win..it sure seems like it wants too. Not to mention the TRENT for heisman love.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=313230333

want to look at some schedules?

http://www.fbschedules.com/

 

[Husker Fan]

The BCS would be a great system if every year ended with two undefeated teams but unfortunately that doesn't happen. The national championship shouldn't be based on bias polls and computers. Now a playoff system is far from perfect but at least it let's the teams settle it on the field and creates far less controversy.