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Cleveland Indians (official 2012 season)

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tsteele316;2178508; said:
like i said, the massive differentials in the stats i cited make this untrue. that's why baseball is the ultimate stats game. otherwise, people would look at rudimentary numbers and come up with this type of conclusion.

and that doesn't even get into the positional value argument, in which santana has actually become a decent defensive catcher, while laporta is still a butcher at whatever position he plays, and laporta plays a primary power position in the field in which greater offensive production is expected.
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Still totally missing the point. Just because some of Santana's numbers are slightly better, or even in one or two instances more than slightly better, than LaBusta's numbers does NOT mean that Santana's numbers are impressive. Santana has been a bust.

When considering that Santana has been given signficantly greater chances to succeed and an enhanced contract, a strong argument can be made that he, so far, is a biggger bust than LaBusta. Defensive catchers who don't hit much are cheap and not that hard to find; the Indians already have a couple more in LouMar and Carlin.
 
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Zippercat;2178880; said:
Still totally missing the point. Just because some of Santana's numbers are slightly better, or even in one or two instances more than slightly better, than LaBusta's numbers does NOT mean that Santana's numbers are impressive. Santana has been a bust.

When considering that Santana has been given signficantly greater chances to succeed and an enhanced contract, a strong argument can be made that he, so far, is a biggger bust than LaBusta. Defensive catchers who don't hit much are cheap and not that hard to find; the Indians already have a couple more in LouMar and Carlin.
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then you clearly don't understand the value of advanced stats or how santana compares to other catchers in the league.
 
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tsteele316;2178923; said:
then you clearly don't understand the value of advanced stats or how santana compares to other catchers in the league.
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Perhaps you could enlighten us with some of your wisdom and provide something other than insults to support your claims? Baseball Prospectus seems to have overlooked Santana too:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=17623

I've seen Santana in person for at least 90 games and only missed the telecast of a handful of others. From what I've seen, he has not shown virtually any improvement at the plate since his rookie year.

Yes, his defense behind the plate is MUCH improved this season, although the past few weeks he has not thrown as well as he did in April and May, before his concussion. He has not put many throws right on the 1B side of the bag at Second, like he was doing. To my eye, his footwork has gotten sloppy coming out of the crouch. Maybe he's still suffering some from the head hit, maybe he's focusing more on trying to hit and losing concentration on cartching? Got an undisclosed injury? Maybe you have a stat for that?
 
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saying santana is a bigger bust then Laporta at this point is idiotic...he is having a very disappointing year for sure and i think i saw he hasnt hit a homerun since May...but he is still young and has plenty of opportunities to turn things around...he has the talent to have a hot august and september and hopefully he will...but seriously what are your options if you send him down to AAA?? Lou Marson as the everyday catcher? no thanks
 
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y0yoyoin;2178976; said:
...but he is still young
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img-thing
 
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Zippercat;2178972; said:
Perhaps you could enlighten us with some of your wisdom and provide something other than insults to support your claims? Baseball Prospectus seems to have overlooked Santana too:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=17623

I've seen Santana in person for at least 90 games and only missed the telecast of a handful of others. From what I've seen, he has not shown virtually any improvement at the plate since his rookie year.

Yes, his defense behind the plate is MUCH improved this season, although the past few weeks he has not thrown as well as he did in April and May, before his concussion. He has not put many throws right on the 1B side of the bag at Second, like he was doing. To my eye, his footwork has gotten sloppy coming out of the crouch. Maybe he's still suffering some from the head hit, maybe he's focusing more on trying to hit and losing concentration on cartching? Got an undisclosed injury? Maybe you have a stat for that?
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yes, an article that is based on 3 months worth of stats, which has nothing to do with the comparison between laporta, or santana's relative value beyond just this season. bottom line is that if you refuse to acknowledge the massive differential in the stats I pointed out and why they're relevant, then this discussion has no further place to go.
 
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Bucklion;2180344; said:
Was a little surprised by the release of Crowe, it's not like the team is exactly bursting at the seams with OF prospects.
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Hmmm... he's what 28 or 29 and still sucks?

That might have been it. :lol:
 
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OK, fess up! How many of you would have taken even 10 to 1 odds on May 20 that two months later Johnny Damon would have a higher batting average than Carllos Santana? Yet, here we are on July 20 and Damon is hitting .233 and Santana has dropped to .223.

Now, before a couple of you get your panties all tied up, I'm not saying that Damon is a better hitter at this point in his career than Santana is. But by nearly any measure, except maybe walks, Santana's season continues to slide downhill and has gotten to the point where he's now below guys like Damon by some metrics.

Meanwhile, tonight was also the return of Rock N Blast to Progressive Field, this time synced to music by the Beatles and with lasers. If you've not seen the Tribe's Rock N Blast shows, if you can take a chance to do so tomorrow night. By far the most incredible fireworks show of the season for the Indians. Even worth sitting all the way through a stinker of game as tonight's 10-2 loss to the Os turned out to be!
 
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Zippercat;2181920; said:
OK, fess up! How many of you would have taken even 10 to 1 odds on May 20 that two months later Johnny Damon would have a higher batting average than Carllos Santana? Yet, here we are on July 20 and Damon is hitting .233 and Santana has dropped to .223.

Now, before a couple of you get your panties all tied up, I'm not saying that Damon is a better hitter at this point in his career than Santana is. But by nearly any measure, except maybe walks, Santana's season continues to slide downhill and has gotten to the point where he's now below guys like Damon by some metrics.

Meanwhile, tonight was also the return of Rock N Blast to Progressive Field, this time synced to music by the Beatles and with lasers. If you've not seen the Tribe's Rock N Blast shows, if you can take a chance to do so tomorrow night. By far the most incredible fireworks show of the season for the Indians. Even worth sitting all the way through a stinker of game as tonight's 10-2 loss to the Os turned out to be!
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To be clear, Re: Santana, I think he is an absolute mess right now. I was probably the first to throw out the "bust" label a few weeks back. But, I did have issues comparing him to LaBusta, in that Santana has shown periods of sustained success, reasonable plate discipline, defensive ability, and has at least a decent season under his belt. That's why I'm willing to give him a little more latitude than the guy who has never strung two good games together that I can recall.

But, yes, at this point, Santana has been a massive disappointment...and the passes are only going to go on so long before we all have to realize he's not going to be a middle-of-the-order offensive powerhouse at the C position. I'm starting to think we have a .230-.340-.400 guy who can play above average defense and will take walks vice the .290-.380-.500 guy we hoped for.
 
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