Cleveland Cavs (2016 NBA Champions)

[Mac]

This is literally hilarious.


Minnesota has a player that Cleveland wants. That pretty much gives Minnesota all of the leverage.

Are you confused between us not wanting Love and not wanting to give up too much?

I'm all for adding Love, but you have to do it in a way that doesn't cripple a position/your bench/your ability for growth and progress in the future.

 

[NJ-Buckeye]

I want Love.. and Wiggins.. and Tristan.. and Andy .. and my 1st rounders... and I want it all to fit under the cap.. that's all

Oh.. and I want EVERYBODY to have a BANNER

 

[ethan]

Minnesota has a player that Cleveland wants. That pretty much gives Minnesota all of the leverage.

That's true in this case because the Cavs need to get Love this year. They really cant wait until he is a Free Agent to sign him outright.
The Cavs want to contend this year. That's what gives Wolves all the leverage.

Wiggins is good as gone. Wolves will drag this out all the way until the Feb 20th trade deadline.
The only realistic way the Cavs get Love and keep Wiggins is in February. That's the only point the Wolves will be desperate enough.

Cavs don't want to do that, because the team will need the first half of the year to build chemistry.
I really like Wiggins, but realistically...He is good as gone. Lebron wants Love, the Cavs are going to get him.
I don't think there is much debate here. Wolves will hold out until they get Wiggins, Cavs will cave, at some point.

Irving 22, James 29, Love 25 years old.
That will give us at least, a 5 year window to consistently get to the Finals.

 

[OleOleOleOle]

LordJeffBuck, you have a good point with fear because I know a lot of us are worried about giving up so much just to see Wiggins turn into a stud.

The thing is though is that this deal is unheard of almost. When a star wants out of a team, you never see teams overpay or even pay that highly to get them. The last two number one picks, and another 1st rd pick... for a man that regardless won't be in a Twolves jersey in less than a year. We have Heywood's nice contract to use, and we could also at least wait til the trade deadline to see if Wiggins and Bennett's stock go up and they likely will. It's being reported that deal isn't good enough.

I won't be mad if we let Wiggins, Bennett, and a 1st rounder go, but if they are honestly asking for Waiters too, that's ridiculous not to mention who does that leave us at the 2 spot to start? Miller, Jones, and Ray Allen are not starters. Flip Saunders is getting far too greedy for a man that isn't in a position as powerful as he thinks. Cavs are still a top 2 team in the East without Love.

Fact of the matter is, we are letting Minn trade rape us if we give up anymore than Wiggins, Bennett, and a 1st.

 

[buckeyesin07]

Minnesota has a player that Cleveland wants. That pretty much gives Minnesota all of the leverage.

The analysis isn't that simple. Not when Minnesota has Love under contract for less than a year, he's already told them he's going to walk rather than re-sign, and there are no other viable suitors out there right now driving up the demand for Love's services, to my knowledge (and, no, Golden State doesn't count, considering they told Minnesota to pound salt on the Klay Thompson deal).

But maybe I'm wrong here. What team do you think is (1) interested in Love, (2) would be a team with which he'd agree to sign a multi-year deal, and (3) has assets that they would be willing to trade--and Minnesota would be willing to accept--for Love? It's a serious question, because I've read nothing that indicates there's any team out there, besides the Cavs of course, that fit all three prongs. Golden State is comes the closest, but they fail prong 3 as a result of the Klay Thompson stalemate.

 

[Buckeye737]

Here's a little life lesson for free: You don't become successful looking for bargains, you become successful by finding the best and doing whatever it takes to obtain it.

I think Warren Buffett would very much disagree with you on this. Warren's philosophy has been to find obtain things that are undervalued and to avoid things that are overvalued.

Of course, even if we all agreed on that philosophy, we would still disagree on the values of Love, Wiggins, and future first round draft picks.

 

[UpNorth_Buckeye]

If Irving were on Minnesota and the Cavs' front office were considering trading Wiggins, Bennett, and other future first-round picks for Irving, I'd think that's ridiculous too. So what was your point again?

My point was the first two thirds of my post that you so conveniently passed over to point out that my secondary point does not sit well with you personally. So good job?

 

[Buckeye737]

I'm on the bandwagon against the Wiggins for Love deal. I don't buy the argument that my camp is afraid of success or anything like that. I think we feel the way we do for a few reasons.

1) We are among those most opposed to superstars congregating on one team. We were as turned off by the Lebron/Wade/Bosh as anyone since we were spurned in the deal, so we don't want our team built in that same way. It's not 100% the same situation, but it's in the ballpark.

2) We are long-term focused. Keeping Wiggins seems to give the Cavs a high likelihood of a contender for the next 15 years. There are no guarantees of a championship over those 15 years, but there is no guarantee that Love/Lebron/Irving can create a championship team either.

3) We're skeptical of the 3-star team that can't afford to bring in any surrounding talent.

 

[ethan]

I'm on the bandwagon against the Wiggins for Love deal. I don't buy the argument that my camp is afraid of success or anything like that. I think we feel the way we do for a few reasons.

1) We are among those most opposed to superstars congregating on one team. We were as turned off by the Lebron/Wade/Bosh as anyone since we were spurned in the deal, so we don't want our team built in that same way. It's not 100% the same situation, but it's in the ballpark.

2) We are long-term focused. Keeping Wiggins seems to give the Cavs a high likelihood of a contender for the next 15 years. There are no guarantees of a championship over those 15 years, but there is no guarantee that Love/Lebron/Irving can create a championship team either.

3) We're skeptical of the 3-star team that can't afford to bring in any surrounding talent.

I would have a couple counter arguments to those reasons.

1) Kyrie and Lebron were drafted by the Cavs. Going after a single superstar from outside of the organization happens everywhere.
Nobody teamed up...to come to Cleveland. Its nothing like the way Miami congregated.

2) Wiggins is a 19 year old kid who has never played an NBA game, there is a chance he will never be an all-star.
Even in the summer league his ball handling looked very raw. He has potential to be great, but he also has potential to be average.
LeBron has proven he can put a championship team on his back. LeBron is the single best basketball player in the world right now.
He only has 5 years left of that level of greatness. Two of those years would be wasted waiting for Wiggins to develop.

3) IF Wiggins becomes an all-star what do you expect the Cavs to pay him? He will want max money.
Irving/Wiggins/Lebron would be just as capped out as Irving/Love/Lebron.

Love makes the team a contender right now, Wiggins might make the team a contender in 2/3 years.
Even having Love+Wiggins, only gives the Cavs a 4 year window until Wiggins wants max money...then they would have to trade him or Love.

Cavs need to have Love on the roster by the start of the season.
This is about LeBron more than it is about Wiggins. LeBron isn't 25 anymore, Cavs cant wait for Wiggins.

 

[Buckeye737]

I would have a couple counter arguments to those reasons.

1) Kyrie and Lebron were drafted by the Cavs. Going after a single superstar from outside of the organization happens everywhere.
Nobody teamed up...to come to Cleveland. Its nothing like the way Miami congregated.

2) Wiggins is a 19 year old kid who has never played an NBA game, there is a chance he will never be an all-star.
Even in the summer league his ball handling looked very raw. He has potential to be great, but he also has potential to be average.
LeBron has proven he can put a championship team on his back. LeBron is the single best basketball player in the world right now.
He only has 5 years left of that level of greatness. Two of those years would be wasted waiting for Wiggins to develop.

3) IF Wiggins becomes an all-star what do you expect the Cavs to pay him? He will want max money.
Irving/Wiggins/Lebron would be just as capped out as Irving/Love/Lebron.

Love makes the team a contender right now, Wiggins might make the team a contender in 2/3 years.
Even having Love+Wiggins, only gives the Cavs a 4 year window until Wiggins wants max money...then they would have to trade him or Love.

1) I think your point on this is valid. It's definitely not the exact same situation as Miami, but I still don't like seeing the Minnesotas of the world lose players to the NBA blue bloods such as the Lakers and Celtics. Of couse, we are uniquely in this situation because of Lebron. I don't want to see Minnesota get fleeced for Love, and I don't want to see the Cavs give up too much.

2) I agree that Wiggins is an unknown, so we have to play the odds. I think the odds are that he becomes a Top 5 player in the NBA. I think the odds are just as good Love has an injury riddled career as Wiggins not developing into an All-Star. Even if we keep Wiggins, I wouldn't call the next two years wasted. Having quality depth may be just as important as having a 3rd star on the team right now (in the scenario where we also have to give up someone like Waiters).

3) I think this situation could work out quite organically. In 5 years, does Lebron finally believe he has made enough through salary and endorsements that he takes a significant pay cut? Obviously he doesn't want to do it yet, but the next five years could build a lot more goodwill between the Cavs ownership/management and Lebron.

 

[ethan]

I think the ideal solution is keeping Wiggins and getting Love.
I would be willing to trade any combination of, Waiters & Thompson or Bennett and 2/3 first round picks.
Bennett still has potential to be a great player. He impressed me in the summer league.

 

[UpNorth_Buckeye]

I think the ideal solution is keeping Wiggins and getting Love.
I would be willing to trade any combination of, Waiters & Thompson or Bennett and 2/3 first round picks.
Bennett still has potential to be a great player. He impressed me in the summer league.

I think best case scenario is Golden State stays in their absolutely idiotic stance of not trading Klay Thompson for Love, and no other major player comes through. I think Minnesota has to trade him, and while Waiters/Thompson/Bennet and 2 first round picks is actually too steep, I think they may jump on a Thompson/Bennet/2 first rounders for Love deal if they happen to not have anything else on the table. I still feel though that GS will realize how stupid they are being and include Klay Thompson eventually.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

It wouldn't surprise me if the T-wolves were putting out info to get the Warriors to up their bid and thus force Cleveland to up their bid.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/07/report_kevin_love_trade_talks.html#incart_river

The fear of greatness on this board is mind boggling.

Here's a little life lesson for free: You don't become successful looking for bargains, you become successful by finding the best and doing whatever it takes to obtain it.

Fear of greatness? Please. You don't give up two #1 picks and a first-round pick for Love. Wiggins and a draft pick for Love? Maybe...

 

[jwinslow]

Love is #3 in "player efficiency rating", behind Durant and LeBron. LINK

Love is #3 in "value added", again behind Durant and LeBron. LINK

Love is #3 in "estimated wins added" (with 21.5), once again behind Durant and LeBron. LINK

Oh, and get this: Love is #5 in "defensive rebound rate". LINK So much for the argument that he doesn't play any defense.

Is that enough "metrics" for you?


I think that the metrics cited above go a long way toward demonstrating that Love is a top-5 player in the NBA.

The people who are against a Wiggins for Love deal are simply afraid. Fortunately, Dan Gilbert will not be.


You just made my point for me. This is a perfect example of the "fear of greatness" point of view.

Yes, LJB, I'm terrified of greatness for Cleveland, which is weird I've never been a fan of any Cleveland team and my only pro team is in Washington. Maybe I'm afraid Cleveland will rise up in bball, become a legitimate free agent destination overall and they will no longer need Kirk cousins.

I look forward to more "u scurred" broad brushes either way. They are very compelling arguments.

I think Love should be valued very highly but not recklessly.

 

[MaxBuck]

I think Love should be valued very highly but not recklessly.

This.

OTOH, if the Cavs trade Wiggins, Bennett and a first for Love, I'll be willing to do a wait-and-see rather than wail and moan about the front office being a pack of dweebs. Honestly, the worst front office in the NBA knows a hell of a lot more about basketball than I do.