Cleveland Browns (2010 season)

[hatehineygate]

I dont think Holmgren was ever the talent evaluator people think he is. Also, IMO he is running the show, Heckert has a part in it, but ultimately the yay or nay comes down to Holmgren. Look at a Mangini team and then look at a Andy Ried/Holmgren team, the players needed for the two types of teams are very different. Example, I still dont get how 4-3 defensive front office guys are stocking the fridge for a 3-4 defense. Ultimately the two wont mesh and Holmgren will step in to coach the players he is bringing in. There have been more lateral moves or negative moves made and here the ones that make sense so far

******THIS IS MY OPINION, THIS IS NOT SAID IN A MATTER OF FACT WAY**************************

-Sheldon Brown. Brownies over paid a bit, but at that point the secondary needed help bad. Physical against the run, will defend the edge. Absolutely need that for when a soft cover two is used. Can blitz very well.

-Shawn Lauvao. Any help on the right side of the line are a bonus, great value there. The only thing I appreciated about the Phil Savage years was the deep versatile offensive line the Browns built. This is one of those guys, can play in different run schemes.

-Signed to extensions Matt Roth, Abram Elam and Lawrence Vickers.

That is it.

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And regarding the Seahawks question, I am a little gun shy from the moves made to bring in old Jets, now its bringing in old Seahags. Claimed OL Steve Vallos off waivers from Seattle. Thank goodness they cut Bobby Engram, but like it was mentioned earlier, he was brought in to teach younger guys(more Seahawks offensive input). They cut Mangini's pool boy ratliff so they could keep a Brady Quinn clone, the type of QB Mangini hates.

 

[Buckeneye]

Look at a Mangini team and then look at a Andy Ried/Holmgren team

The only difference is that this isn't a "Holmgren" team. Mangini is the head coach and Holmgren himself has stated he will not (nor has he) interfered with any scheme or game-plan that Mangini will use. We're drafting/trading for 3-4 personnel because we have a defensive coord and head coach that are familiar and prefer the system.
.

-Signed to extensions Matt Roth, Abram Elam and Lawrence Vickers.

And aside from Vickers there has been serious question placed on resigning both. Roth has played like garbage this entire pre-season. Either he's just been at the wrong place wrong time, or he's only giving a half-assed effort because he's pissed he wasn't signed to a long term deal with next to nothing for leverage to back that up.

Keeping Elam is just insurance, the second we get any safety that looks competent enough to take over the starting job (I'm hoping Sheldon by mid-season) Elam will either be 2nd string, or out the door. I'm just fine and dandy with either.

 

[tsteele316]

I dont think Holmgren was ever the talent evaluator people think he is. Also, IMO he is running the show, Heckert has a part in it, but ultimately the yay or nay comes down to Holmgren. Look at a Mangini team and then look at a Andy Ried/Holmgren team, the players needed for the two types of teams are very different. Example, I still dont get how 4-3 defensive front office guys are stocking the fridge for a 3-4 defense. Ultimately the two wont mesh and Holmgren will step in to coach the players he is bringing in. There have been more lateral moves or negative moves made and here the ones that make sense so far

******THIS IS MY OPINION, THIS IS NOT SAID IN A MATTER OF FACT WAY**************************

-Sheldon Brown. Brownies over paid a bit, but at that point the secondary needed help bad. Physical against the run, will defend the edge. Absolutely need that for when a soft cover two is used. Can blitz very well.

-Shawn Lauvao. Any help on the right side of the line are a bonus, great value there. The only thing I appreciated about the Phil Savage years was the deep versatile offensive line the Browns built. This is one of those guys, can play in different run schemes.

-Signed to extensions Matt Roth, Abram Elam and Lawrence Vickers.

That is it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And regarding the Seahawks question, I am a little gun shy from the moves made to bring in old Jets, now its bringing in old Seahags. Claimed OL Steve Vallos off waivers from Seattle. Thank goodness they cut Bobby Engram, but like it was mentioned earlier, he was brought in to teach younger guys(more Seahawks offensive input). They cut Mangini's pool boy ratliff so they could keep a Brady Quinn clone, the type of QB Mangini hates.

this is comically wrong in many ways.

1. holmgren leaves personnel moves to heckert. the only time holmgren steps in is to settle any sort of tiebreakers that are needed. i don't know how this could be made any clearer.

2. all nfl teams have scouting departments. these guys have scouted every type of player imaginable. it's not a tough concept.

3. you have still yet to show what these nonsensical moves are.

4. cleveland got sheldon brown and chris gocong for a 4th and 5th round pick. that's hardly overpaying, especially considering brown can be moved to safety in the future. i don't see how that move doesn't make sense.

5. the brown's OL was certainly not deep during trader phil's tenure. how you conjured that will be interesting to hear.

6. matt roth, abe elam, and lawrence vickers were not signed to extensions. they signed their tender offers. this is a total whiff on your part.

7. i will say it again. try to comprehend. they took one seahawk from the waiver wire, and one backup qb that holmgren knew well. that's hardly a massive influx of seattle players.

8. mangini loved noodle armed chad pennington. colt mccoy is similar to him. he's not a qb mangini hates. another whiff.

 

[Mike80]

8. mangini loved noodle armed chad pennington. colt mccoy is similar to him. he's not a qb mangini hates. another whiff.

That's just bitterness on Rhabuf's part because the Emu isn't up in Cleveland. I'd just ignore it

 

[hatehineygate]

this is comically wrong in many ways.

1. holmgren leaves personnel moves to heckert. the only time holmgren steps in is to settle any sort of tiebreakers that are needed. i don't know how this could be made any clearer.In my opinion and in seeing how things generally work around the league, I disagree.

2. all nfl teams have scouting departments. these guys have scouted every type of player imaginable. it's not a tough concept. I agree

3. you have still yet to show what these nonsensical moves are. other than the moves I stated, every move they have made has been crappy in my opinion.

4. cleveland got sheldon brown and chris gocong for a 4th and 5th round pick. that's hardly overpaying, especially considering brown can be moved to safety in the future. i don't see how that move doesn't make sense.I said the I liked the move. In my opinion, it would have been nice to have one of those picks for some defensive guys still on the board at that point.

5. the brown's OL was certainly not deep during trader phil's tenure. how you conjured that will be interesting to hear.They had guys that could play multiple positions, I like that a lot in a team

6. matt roth, abe elam, and lawrence vickers were not signed to extensions. they signed their tender offers. this is a total whiff on your part. my bad, they signed their tender offers

7. i will say it again. try to comprehend. they took one seahawk from the waiver wire, and one backup qb that holmgren knew well. that's hardly a massive influx of seattle players. why are you gettin so angry about this?

8. mangini loved noodle armed chad pennington. colt mccoy is similar to him. he's not a qb mangini hates. another whiff.I said he hated Quinn, I didnt say he hated McCoy, although watching the end of the last preseason game, that may change. Pennington had amazing accuracy, the most valuable trait in an NFL QB, McCoy and Quinn do not

Buckeyemike, please go. If you want to talk about him meet me over in his thread and we can talk about it.

Anyone have any feelings on the next LB to get the ax?

 

[Mike80]

Buckeyemike, please go. If you want to talk about him meet me over in his thread and we can talk about it.

Anyone have any feelings on the next LB to get the ax?

 

[hatehineygate]

The only difference is that this isn't a "Holmgren" team. Mangini is the head coach and Holmgren himself has stated he will not (nor has he) interfered with any scheme or game-plan that Mangini will use. We're drafting/trading for 3-4 personnel because we have a defensive coord and head coach that are familiar and prefer the system.

I believe you, we do run a 3-4 defense, but how do all of these guys with resumes with the 4-3 on there go about getting players? Heckert is making all of the moves, right? He isnt a 3-4 guy, Holmgren isnt. That makes me believe Mangini has a say in the picks, but thats not what I keep hearing, this is all Heckert's show. Its confusing to me, people with no track record of picking specific types of players are making these decisions and so far I am not happy with them.
.

And aside from Vickers there has been serious question placed on resigning both. Roth has played like garbage this entire pre-season. Either he's just been at the wrong place wrong time, or he's only giving a half-assed effort because he's [censored]ed he wasn't signed to a long term deal with next to nothing for leverage to back that up.

Keeping Elam is just insurance, the second we get any safety that looks competent enough to take over the starting job (I'm hoping Sheldon by mid-season) Elam will either be 2nd string, or out the door. I'm just fine and dandy with either.

I like those moves. I liked Roth in college, but you are right, ultimately I think his attitude probably sucks. He is, by lack of others, the guy I trust most on the edge. He has actually done something during live fire. Wish it didnt have to be that way, but at this point we cant really be choosers.

Elam is nice depth and Vickers is pretty fun to watch.

 

[tsteele316]

1. seeing how things work in the league? copout. it's not how things work, and that totally deflates your already shoddy argument.

2. if it's not a tough concept, how did you conjure some theory about holmgrem usurping mangini's coaching role based on having a front office that has only drafted 4-3 guys?

3. i've already shot down your other attempts to name any of these moves. so you throw out a blanket statement of "all moves" make no sense. perhaps they only don't make sense to you.

4. cleveland got 2 starters for a 4th and 5th. they weren't going to do anything better in the draft. complaining about overpaying given what they gave up is ridiculous.

5. they had guys that sucked at multiple positions. they still have that now. that doesn't equal depth.

6. there is a big difference between the two. considering this one of your premises for your grand theory, you'd think that you would know the difference.

7. i'm not angry. you tried to make an inaccurate statement several times, and several times I refuted it.

8. you amaze me with the amount of backtracking and sidestepping you do. your entire point was that heckert and holmgren were going to wedge out mangini, and cleveland cutting ratliff and keeping mccoy was another lame attempt to justify this as, "mccoy is the same type of qb as quinn, which is the type of qb mangini hates." by the by, mccoy's biggest trait coming out of college was his accuracy. so, to say he's shown a lack thereof in 3 preseason games, especially given his completion % in his last one, is blatantly false.

seriously, just stop.

 

[hatehineygate]

1. seeing how things work in the league? copout. it's not how things work, and that totally deflates your already shoddy argument.

2. if it's not a tough concept, how did you conjure some theory about holmgrem usurping mangini's coaching role based on having a front office that has only drafted 4-3 guys?because he will can Mangini and go back to running the 4-3 when he gets his staff in there. There is a reason the Browns havent drafted any 3-4 specific people.

3. i've already shot down your other attempts to name any of these moves. so you throw out a blanket statement of "all moves" make no sense. perhaps they only don't make sense to you. if thats the way you see it, but other than the moves I said, IMO they were all crap. That includes the draft picks the FAs etc

4. cleveland got 2 starters for a 4th and 5th. they weren't going to do anything better in the draft. complaining about overpaying given what they gave up is ridiculous.I think I would rather have some of the guys on the board for one of those picks. Would have been awesome to get Brown for just one of those picks

5. they had guys that sucked at multiple positions. they still have that now. that doesn't equal depth.

6. there is a big difference between the two. considering this one of your premises for your grand theory, you'd think that you would know the difference.dont know how many more times I needed to state it was my opinion. I even put it at the top of the post, pretty big

7. i'm not angry. you tried to make an inaccurate statement several times, and several times I refuted it.who is to say which opinion is incorrect, can an opinion even be incorrect?

8. you amaze me with the amount of backtracking and sidestepping you do. your entire point was that heckert and holmgren were going to wedge out mangini, and cleveland cutting ratliff and keeping mccoy was another lame attempt to justify this as, "mccoy is the same type of qb as quinn, which is the type of qb mangini hates." by the by, mccoy's biggest trait coming out of college was his accuracy. so, to say he's shown a lack thereof in 3 preseason games, especially given his completion % in his last one, is blatantly false. McCoy dumping the ball off to Shipley on 6 yard passes throws your whole theory out of the window. The guy isnt accurate enough to be a starter right now. I doubt he ever gains enough accuracy to become a starter. Again, that is my oppinion, but there are others that have said the same thing. On one hand you want to tell me his inaccuracy in all of three games isnt enough to say he is inaccurate, but you want to make sure his completion % in preseason game goes into the accurate column. What is by the by?

seriously, just stop.

Its my opinion dude.

 

[tsteele316]

1. you didn't respond to this because you know it's a laughable notion.

2. the only way to draft 3-4 specific players is to take them from schools that run a 3-4 and have draft eligible players. this argument is totally dumb.

3. you have offered no backing to show why these moves are crap. just tossing out a blanket statement with no justification is bush league. step it up.

4. the browns put their 5th round pick on the practice squad this year. they weren't getting anything with those picks even remotely close to gocong and brown. why you can't grasp this is baffling.

5. ...

6. you can say it's your opinion all you want. there still has to be some logic or rationale behind it. you refuse to say what it is, if it's anything at all. the reasoning you did put forth has been promptly rebutted.

7. opinions can be incorrect. it's my opinion that monkeys make excellent heart surgeons. not only can opinions be incorrect, but the logic used to form them can be as well. this is where you repeatedly fail. calling something an opinion doesn't give you carte blanche to throw out whatever bullshit comes to mind then get mad when people refute it.

8. no, your entire argument was that colt mccoy was the same as brady quinn, including accuracy issues. there is nothing that mccoy has shown in college, or during his short tenure with the browns that even remotely comes close to mimicking quinn's inaccuracy. this all goes back to another one of your false premises that you tried earlier, which promptly got rebuffed. simply calling it opinion doesn't change that.

 

[y0yoyoin]

so with time warner columbus being the sweetest cable company in the world they are not showing the browns game this sunday and instead are showing the bengals game...so the ongoing battle between time warner choosing the matchup for that given week between the browns and bengals continues...just a heads up so when your all hungover from the buckeyes game on sunday you get to wake up and get to a bar early to watch the game...sweet

 

[jlb1705]

so with time warner columbus being the sweetest cable company in the world they are not showing the browns game this sunday and instead are showing the bengals game...so the ongoing battle between time warner choosing the matchup for that given week between the browns and bengals continues...just a heads up so when your all hungover from the buckeyes game on sunday you get to wake up and get to a bar early to watch the game...sweet

Welcome to my life in Bengals hell.

They even do it one worse here. I mean, I expect if the Browns and Bengals are playing in different games at the same time I'm gonna have to head to the bar. When they're not on at the same time, instead of showing Browns-Ravens or something like that, they'll show Dolphins-Texans or some dumb shit like that.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind having an excuse to go to the bar, but sometimes I enjoy not paying a 66% markup on beer too.

 

[hatehineygate]

1. you didn't respond to this because you know it's a laughable notion.
If you feel its laughable that I think that all moves made need to go through Holmgren or that he doesnt even offer up ideas with some weight, then we disagree
2. the only way to draft 3-4 specific players is to take them from schools that run a 3-4 and have draft eligible players. this argument is totally dumb. this is an opinion of yours, I dont agree with it, but its no big deal

3. you have offered no backing to show why these moves are crap. just tossing out a blanket statement with no justification is bush league. step it up. This is where you fail to understand that it is an opinion. In your opinion the moves arent crap, it would be irrational of me to ask you to prove that with facts

4. the browns put their 5th round pick on the practice squad this year. they weren't getting anything with those picks even remotely close to gocong and brown. why you can't grasp this is baffling. here is some more proof that the moves are garbage

5. ...

6. you can say it's your opinion all you want. there still has to be some logic or rationale behind it. you refuse to say what it is, if it's anything at all. the reasoning you did put forth has been promptly rebutted. Given how many of your opinions regarding the draft and other moves have proved to be not all that great, I dont mind if you disagree with my take

7. opinions can be incorrect. it's my opinion that monkeys make excellent heart surgeons. not only can opinions be incorrect, but the logic used to form them can be as well. this is where you repeatedly fail. calling something an opinion doesn't give you carte blanche to throw out whatever bull[censored] comes to mind then get mad when people refute it. this is a free forum to express your opinions, I absolutely have the right to say what I want as long as its withing the rules of the forum. I am not mad at all, kind of amused to be honest with you

8. no, your entire argument was that colt mccoy was the same as brady quinn, including accuracy issues. there is nothing that mccoy has shown in college, or during his short tenure with the browns that even remotely comes close to mimicking quinn's inaccuracy. this all goes back to another one of your false premises that you tried earlier, which promptly got rebuffed. simply calling it opinion doesn't change that. again, I disagree with you on the accuracy issue. I would ask you to use facts to prove that McCoy is more accurate, but its pretty much impossible. And regarding my earlier argument about not drafting McCoy, I look absolutely right on that one so far. When the majority of the thread was wanting to draft McCoy in the late first round or the early second based on his 80% completion % and college accomplishments I was the only one that had a problem with it. There are plenty of pages where I am getting it from everyone regarding that one.

Lets just move on man. People asked me to my opinion by saying it was my opinion and that is what I did. If you want me to back my opinions up with facts then I challenge you to do the same. Prove to me that the moves made are good ones. the same reasons you cant provide factual info to back up those claims are the same reasons I cant back mine up. Its early and its an opinion.

Willing to move on if you are buddy.

 

[tsteele316]

1. no, your position was that specific moves were being made to directly lead to mangini's downfall so holmgren can take over, which is laughable.

2. it is not an opinion that the only way to draft 3-4 "ready" players is to take them from schools that run a 3-4. otherwise you're converting 4-3 players to a 3-4, which was the very thing you said was a problem. there is no opinion in that.

3. i would be glad to prove you wrong with facts if you would offer something tangible other than a blanket statement. anytime you have done so thus far in this thread, you have been summarily shot down.

4. a lot of 5th round and later picks end up on the practice squad or outright released all over the nfl. simply look at the waiver wire. it's not hard. what it shows is that 5th round and later picks generally have very little value, which is why getting 2 actual starters for those picks was a very good value deal.

5. .

6. another blanket statement with no backup?

7. it is a free forum to express opinions. I don't see any examples of me trying to censor you in any way. all i've done is disagree with your opinions, and ask for any sort of rationale behind them. in the rare case when you've offered any, i've summarily shown how it was incorrect. all within the rules of the forum. i'm hardly angry at you. however, to say that you're amused is clearly false, as several individuals have pm's from you that are evidence to the contrary. plus you've already been banned once.

8. i've never once advocated drafting mccoy in the late 1st round. that's another attempt by you to divert from your own poorly thought out statements. colt mccoy's college numbers show he was more accurate than quinn. his preseason numbers were better than quinns. what evidence there is shows him to be more accurate. remember, this whole point of contention was started by your fallacy that mccoy was forced on mangini, who hates such qb's, even though he loved chad pennington, who is very similar to mccoy.

I will say it one more time. you're allowed to have an opinion. don't act surprised when people disagree with it, and use factual information to back it up. when they do so, you have to bring something better than simply repeating that it's your opinion.

 

[LitlBuck]

Lets just move on man. People asked me to my opinion by saying it was my opinion and that is what I did. If you want me to back my opinions up with facts then I challenge you to do the same. Prove to me that the moves made are good ones. the same reasons you cant provide factual info to back up those claims are the same reasons I cant back mine up. Its early and its an opinion.

Willing to move on if you are buddy.

do you see any big red balls by his name (tsteele) and do you see any big red balls by your name. When you make a good post you did not get a red ball and it is rather obvious that by all the red balls you have not made many good post or back them up with any good information. You are so far behind with regard to your reputation you have lost it.