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LV,

I understand the M hand built engine, beefed up suspension, etc... For the extra upfront cost, as well has major increased maintenance cost is there that much of a difference of the M5 and the 540? It seems the M5 is a little better with a huge increase in price... is it really worth it?

Also for a four door car, the new mazzerati (sp?) looks sweet... no clue what kind of performance it offers (or cost for that matter)...
 
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the M5 is a BIG bump up from the 540i when it comes to performance... and i don't think that the M5 costs as much as you think... the last year of M5 production before the new generation was priced around $80,000, which, IMHO really isn't too bad considering that a loaded Corvette Z06 would cost you around $75,000... and i guy i know recently picked up an M5 (an '02, i believe) for $40,000, which is a wonderful value for a car of that quality...

the reason that i mention the Vette is that the Vette is most certainly a high performance vehicle, especially in the Z06 package... what does that have to do with an M5? well, the M5 runs nearly identical performance numbers as the Z06 (both run around 5 seconds flat 0-60, and both run mid 12s at 100+ MPH in the 1/4 mile), and with two more doors and three more seats, and the M5 actually OUT-performs the stock Corvette... now, on a road course, the Z06 would win, simply because it weighs less, and is more nimble... but Z06 performance from a 4 door luxury sedan is quite remarkable... but think about it: you get the high quality and comfort of a BMW with near supercar performance... to me it's a no brainer. i don't know about you, but a well bred sedan with a 5.0 liter 400 horsepower engine, and a chassis designed to put as much of that power to the asphalt as possible seems like the car to beat for me...

BTW, did you know that Caddilac is trying to claim a share of the M market with the introduction of the spec-V models? ...yup, you can buy a CTS spec-V that has none other than the same 5.7 liter 405 horsepower LS1 engine and drivetrain as the aforementioned Corvette Z06... and for a starting price of $56,000, it's a hell of a deal for a stealth speeding machine... but i digress...


*aside* hmm... no response concerning the fact that Porsche competes in both the American and European TOURING Car Championships... oh well, that figures...
 
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lvbuckeye said:
the reason that i mention the Vette is that the Vette is most certainly a high performance vehicle, especially in the Z06 package... what does that have to do with an M5? well, the M5 runs nearly identical performance numbers as the Z06 (both run around 5 seconds flat 0-60, and both run mid 12s at 100+ MPH in the 1/4 mile)
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The Z06 is more like 0-60 in 4-4.5s and low 12s 1/4 mile.
 
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*aside* hmm... no response concerning the fact that Porsche competes in both the American and European TOURING Car Championships... oh well, that figures...
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Fuck you lv.... I apologize for not hanging around here all weekend to argue with your stupid combative arrogant self righteous ass....

Thanks for linking an article chronicalling two different series... where a Porsche Gets beat by an Acura NSX and BMW loses at least one race to a Honda Civic... pretty exciting... Not sure what any of that proves.... so I hope when you say "did someone get owned?' you don't mean me... you mean the collective Germans.. with the exception of the Audi folks.

Now NYB knows which Racing car to buy... of course I'm still not sure what's the best one to both drive to Philly and fullfill his dream to...well own a Porsche...

And Finally... where did I EVER say that the M-3 wasn't a hell of a good car... once again.. I am a BMW Owner... and my next car will be a BMW... and Probably the one after that.... Maybe even an M-3 Somewhere along the line... and I'll have lots of fun in it... but when it comes to comparing it with a 996 (the subject of this thread)...I'm not going to pretend its something its not. And even if you get the fun of saying it will outperform the 996's non Turbo or less powerful offerings... I'm sure they'll tell me what the '85 911 will do to a new 318.

Also... Scott... in no way did I say he AMG's were better performance cars than the M-3... I was commenting on Wolf's "elegance and power" angle... of course I think its probably more fair to do a Z-8 comparison to some of the big $ AMG's... but, again... another change in classification.
 
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Well gents - Im back and did some research over the weekend. Found out the following information about the last two evolutions of the 911.

For starters, it seems that Porsche may have skimped somewhat on the 996 powerplant. Don't know if this is 100% true, but several sources have told me that Porsche spent $10k per 996 engine, $30k per 993 engine, and $40k per turbo engine. As a result, there does seem to be a design flaw in the 996 motor - the rear main seal (RMS). What has occured is the crankshaft and clutch are largely unsupported, which puts tremendous weight on the RMS. Depending upon who you ask, RMS failure for these cars ranges from about 20-70%. Quite a risk for a $1000+ repair, with the potential for a complete engine swap necessary. The 996 turbo, however, is based on the old 993 block, and therefore has no such problem.

Ergo, my search has now narrowed down to the following models -

1996-1997 (993) Carrera ($35-$40k)
1996-1997 (993) Turbo ($55-$80k)
2001-2002 (996) Turbo ($70-$85k)

What is sticking in my craw now is that the new 997 Turbo is due out in about a year, and thats bound to drive down 996 Turbo prices, especially since so many were made. Even in the last year their prices have been taking a beating. Conversely, the 993s have the nostalgia factor of being the last air-cooled Porsches - I just don't think their value is going to drop that much more from where they are now.

My thought right now is to go buy a 993 Carrera, or a 993 Turbo if I can find a good deal. If they dont provide me with enough of a rush, I can always trade it in / sell it in a year or two for a newer Turbo when the price spread between the two has converged.
 
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NewYorkBuck said:
Well gents - Im back and did some research over the weekend. Found out the following information about the last two evolutions of the 911.

For starters, it seems that Porsche may have skimped somewhat on the 996 powerplant. Don't know if this is 100% true, but several sources have told me that Porsche spent $10k per 996 engine, $30k per 993 engine, and $40k per turbo engine. As a result, there does seem to be a design flaw in the 996 motor - the rear main seal (RMS). What has occured is the crankshaft and clutch are largely unsupported, which puts tremendous weight on the RMS. Depending upon who you ask, RMS failure for these cars ranges from about 20-70%. Quite a risk for a $1000+ repair, with the potential for a complete engine swap necessary. The 996 turbo, however, is based on the old 993 block, and therefore has no such problem.

Ergo, my search has now narrowed down to the following models -

1996-1997 (993) Carrera ($35-$40k)
1996-1997 (993) Turbo ($55-$80k)
2001-2002 (996) Turbo ($70-$85k)

What is sticking in my craw now is that the new 997 Turbo is due out in about a year, and thats bound to drive down 996 Turbo prices, especially since so many were made. Even in the last year their prices have been taking a beating. Conversely, the 993s have the nostalgia factor of being the last air-cooled Porsches - I just don't think their value is going to drop that much more from where they are now.

My thought right now is to go buy a 993 Carrera, or a 993 Turbo if I can find a good deal. If they dont provide me with enough of a rush, I can always trade it in / sell it in a year or two for a newer Turbo when the price spread between the two has converged.
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Fuck all that dude.... Honda Civic. :wink2:
 
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NYB,

I don't think you can go wrong with a 993. In my opinion the 993 body is just the classic design. There is a reason why they made the new 997 look more like the 993. I cannot imagine it would not provide enough rush for you :). If it were me, I would look for a 993 C4S instead of just a Carerra. It gives you everything you wanted with the exception of the turbocharger. C4S has the wider turbo body, the Brembo big brakes, and all wheel drive. Cosmetically you could even add a turbo rear spoiler, and a turbo front air dam for less than 2k. If you are looking for something to hold its value a little better, I would consider a 98' but in my opinion they are just too expensive right now. There were no major changes from 96-98, but the 98's are getting 10-20k more just because it was the last year.
 
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AKAKBUCK said:
Fuck all that dude.... Honda Civic. :wink2:
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first of all, asshole, it was a supercharged NSX that beat the Porsche, but that is largely irrelevant to the fact that i was pointing out that Porsche DOES INDEED compete in the Touring Car Championships, as per your post concerning the BMW M3:
AKAKBUCK said:
tsk, tsk... perhaps you should research the European or American Touring Car Championships if you doubt the worthiness of the "Sports Car" title of the M3...
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Which..of course... is why its called 'Touring Car Championships'... as opposed to.... well... you get the idea.
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so YES, you most certainly DID get owned, as Porsches compete SO MUCH in the Touring Car Championships that in many Series, they actually have their own class...

AKAKBUCK said:
Fuck you lv.... I apologize for not hanging around here all weekend to argue with your stupid combative arrogant self righteous ass....

Thanks for linking an article chronicalling two different series... where a Porsche Gets beat by an Acura NSX and BMW loses at least one race to a Honda Civic... pretty exciting... Not sure what any of that proves.... so I hope when you say "did someone get owned?' you don't mean me...
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i MOST CERTAINLY MEAN YOU when i state that someone got owned, because, you attempted to differentiate the BMW from the Porsche by stating that the reason BMW isn't a "Sports Car" is that it competes in the Touring Car Series, all the while forgetting the fact that PORSCHE competes in those same series... i guess Porsche isn't a "sports car" either... :roll1:

have a nice day.


NYB: it would appear to me that the best choice would be the 993 Turbo, seeing that it will cost less than the 996 Turbo, yet has essentially the same powerplant... and now that i think about it, my friend with the 996 Turbo experienced the very problem that you described... either way, you're going to be getting one awesome car!
 
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LV,

Thanks for answering my questions... I didn't realize the M5 had that much of an increase in power and performance...

NYB,

Sounds like you've decided to go with the big boy toy... you better post a pic of the car once you've made your purchase :biggrin: !!!

AKAK and LV,

Can you take the argument to PM's...
 
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lv... I get what you going at... for some reason I was amused at your throwing Honda in there for no reason... what really amused me is that the articles you linked did absolutely nothing to prove your point... No M3 was mentioned as part of the GT Series in it... (Which do have Porshe's) and the BMW's that were mentioned were not M-3's. I think it was funnier, because you assume that I had no idea what you are talking about... while I do not proclaim to be an expert... (Unlike some people) I do try to go to at least one American Lemans Series event a year... and even though the M3's don't run that anymore.. I know that they used to... GT2 IIRC.

My point... originally... was that (And I tried to make this distinction, if you go back to my original post) that the M3 is not a purpose built... top to bottom.... sports car.... If we take the Porsche from Non Turbo 996 (or which ever) you get what a 300 hp car at the bottom up to a what, 450 hp with whatever the fastest GT3 is right now. If you take the M3... you get a 318 4 door at the bottom... which is... well hp isn't the point.. the point is that its a pretty normal car... and then you go through 315's 330's, etc, to the M3...which is the top car in that chassis group... Of course... that flexibility makes the 3 series one of the greatest Chassis in the world...if not of all time... you couldn't do all that stuff with the 911 chassis.... but you can make it really fucking fast. :wink2:
 
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i see now where you're going, and understand the distinction... that's cool...
FWIW, i think that, at least in Europe, you can buy purpose built M3 racers, in the badge of M3 CSL (which further lightens the car and strengthens the chassis) and the M3 GTR, which is used strictly for the track... at any rate i admire the M3, AND the Porsche, but i cannot argue the fact that from a strictly performance package, the Porsche is superior...

apples and oranges...?

LOL, i guess i mentioned Honda because i drive one, and race it, LEGALLY, at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway, and i'm a fan of the Real Time Acura team (wildly successful) in the ATCC Series, and the B.A.R. Honda F1 team, which is having a rough go at it this year...

BTW, my M3 GTR runs circles around ANY Mercedes i own in Gran Tourismo 4... :p
 
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not sure what's going on...

saw this gorgeous gal that looked like his girlfriend zippin down the Jersey Parkway in a Porsche with a bumber sticker that said "Temple Law School"

and wife saw NYB in a Corolla with a bumper sticker that said "Wall Street Rules".. she said he was crying...

dunno
 
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