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Big Ten and other Conference Expansion

Which Teams Should the Big Ten Add? (please limit to four selections)

  • Boston College

    Votes: 32 10.2%
  • Cincinnati

    Votes: 19 6.1%
  • Connecticut

    Votes: 6 1.9%
  • Duke

    Votes: 21 6.7%
  • Georgia Tech

    Votes: 55 17.6%
  • Kansas

    Votes: 46 14.7%
  • Maryland

    Votes: 67 21.4%
  • Missouri

    Votes: 90 28.8%
  • North Carolina

    Votes: 39 12.5%
  • Notre Dame

    Votes: 209 66.8%
  • Oklahoma

    Votes: 78 24.9%
  • Pittsburgh

    Votes: 45 14.4%
  • Rutgers

    Votes: 40 12.8%
  • Syracuse

    Votes: 18 5.8%
  • Texas

    Votes: 121 38.7%
  • Vanderbilt

    Votes: 15 4.8%
  • Virginia

    Votes: 47 15.0%
  • Virginia Tech

    Votes: 62 19.8%
  • Stay at 12 teams and don't expand

    Votes: 27 8.6%
  • Add some other school(s) not listed

    Votes: 25 8.0%

  • Total voters
    313
If Nebraska chafes at the Big 12 restricting partial qualifiers for football, they're really going to hate recruiting in the Big Ten with oversigning limits on top of that. I just don't see Nebraska at all. They're a core B12 member from the Big Eight days, don't have much incentive to leave (especially playing in the soft as tissue paper B12 North), and aren't an academic asset.

The reason a lot of us keep mentioning Texas is that they were added to the B12 not that long ago and don't have any particular loyalty to that conference. If you think of the Big Ten, who would ever leave? We can only imagine PSU, because they're relatively new. Would Michigan, OSU, Minnesota, Wisconsin, etc. ever, ever contemplate another conference? Quite a few B10 schools go back to the old Western Conference days.

Raiding the Big East becomes more likely if rumors start to emerge that they may be dropped from the next BCS agreement, which is always possible. At that point, Rutgers, Syracuse , Pitt and WVU all have serious incentive to start talking with the B10 and ACC.

Edit: I think you have to at least take a swing at Texas. It's something like going over and talking to the hottest girl in the room when you know that she's been arguing with her current boyfriend. Yeah, you're probably going to get shot down, but there's always a chance that your timing is right. :wink:
 
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wow. thank you for the award and for the gestures of appreciation. much appreciated. and thank you, buckeyeskickbuttocks, for fixing the readability of the post. nice way to handle that.

i realize that i should show the other schools being discussed in that post and will amend it. it was intended to be a conference comparison from the texas viewpoint with the big 12 and sec thrown in for perspective, but adding the other teams extends it to be comprehensive of the larger question.

davey has posited that if three teams are added and we assume reality with respect to notre dame, the three should be missouri, nebraska, and pitt. here are the conference summaries as is and with that change:

Big Ten
avg...........50.2
std dev.......19.5
Northwestern....12
Michigan........27
Wisconsin.......39
Illinois........39
Penn State......47
Ohio State......53
Minnesota.......61
Purdue..........61
Michigan St.....71
Iowa............71
Indiana.........71


Big Ten + 3
avg...........57.6
std dev.......24.6
Northwestern....12
Michigan........27
Wisconsin.......39
Illinois........39
Penn State......47
Ohio State......53
Pittsburgh......56
Minnesota.......61
Purdue..........61
Michigan St.....71
Iowa............71
Indiana.........71
Nebraska........96
Missouri.......102



pitt certainly seems like a good fit. if you add three, i'd like it to be pitt and texas, but i'm having trouble coming up with a third. even with their athletic distress, i think notre dame would be ideal if all else was good. the success right now of pitt and texas would offset the struggles of the domers, and the prospect of their righting their ship would be enough in the eyes of the public to see the addition of the three schools in a very positive light. certainly those three additions would be a mega shot in the arm for market positioning.

syracuse would pass muster academically and their basketball program would be a fine addition. we all realize that football is the key, though, and i'd like a stronger program there. i also question how much coverage they would add. as fans, we don't think all that much about marketability and concentrate on issues like academics, reputation, and athletic competence, but i am told that the guys who handle the rudders of the programs pay very much attention to market share. money is a huge issue today and promises to be of much greater significance in the future.

right now rutgers looks like a good possibility. i don't think we can assume any huge market-share effect and the athletic program doesn't improve the perceived strength of the conference. moreover, there is no long history of athletic excellence that might see a resurgence. a good possibility, but not ideal.

any or all three of pitt, syracuse, and rutgers would improve jo-pa's dyspepsia, i suppose.

what about the domers? i mentioned them just now. what if they swallowed a little of their pride and came in? in my reading here, i've not seen much mention of cultural fit. how would notre dame fit in as a conference partner? all of us who know the feeling of great success from time to time have high opinions of ourselves and our programs, but i don't think any of us are prepared for the grandiose self-assessment the average domer possesses. and it is so out-of-bed with the reality of that program the past few years that i highly suspect they aren't a good fit anywhere but on a pedestal in the basement.

that brings up the subject of texas and cultural fit in the big ten. there is a lot of difference in the cultures of the southwest with respect to the upper midwest and east of there. my great suspicion is that many of the schools in the southwest would not work in the big ten. i've read here repeatedly, though, that buckeyes who have shared time with horns have come away with positive impressions, and i think that is indicative of a liitle bit broader outlook in the longhorn community than some of the others in the region, and i think that's what is driving many here to see us as a good all 'round fit.

now. the elephant in my thinking is texas a&m. a&m is a good school, but it is not lost on me that that name has not graced these pages. i've lived a good many years alongside them and a good way to pick my blood pressure up is to mention them. we all know the spirit of a tough rivalry, but this is different. on the surface they appear to be almost as good a fit here as texas, at least if you don't pay attention to their recent athletic woes. really, though, their history is that of a doormat. it took a very slimy jackie sherrill and the good services of the fedex guys to put them on the map for a while. worse . . . much worse, they are in horrible fiscal shape. years of mismanagement and paying multiple football head coaches at the same time have put them at the doorstep of bankrupcy. they tried to match texas in facilities and added a huge end zone project to their tackle-box stadium, but they only sell the thing out when somebody like texas comes to town. but much, much worse even than that -- and i'm sure you guys know it, but i just feel the need to get it in print -- is the cultural clash of college station, texas and the big ten. i'm sure you all have heard stories, but it is probably much worse than you can imagine. in my travels around the country the various places i've lived, i've learned to not tell all with respect to the gomers. at some point i lose my audience, so to speak. at some point my listener will decide i am making things up. no way this stuff could be true. some years ago i took my still-young daughter to an aggie game in austin. it so happened that two ags were sitting immediately behind us and they were extremely ugly and obnoxious. openly begging for injury to texas players and the like. trying to goad someone into an ugly encounter. just to our right were two fresh-grad ut young ladies, i gathered, and finally one of them turned on the ags after a particularly nasty comment and blasted them. i nudged the lady and asked her to leave the ags alone. i explained that i had been trying to paint a representative picture of a&m to my daughter but that it was difficult to get it across and not seem histrionic. these two guys, i told her, were doing a great job. the two gals hooted in laughter, and you never saw two nicer representatives in your life as those two clowns the rest of the game. i applaud your not mentioning them.


well, anyway, here i'm showing the big ten with texas and pitt. nothing but good from this vantage:

Big Ten + 2
avg...........50.4
std dev.......17.9
Northwestern....12
Michigan........27
Wisconsin.......39
Illinois........39
Penn State......47
Texas...........47
Ohio State......53
Pittsburgh......56
Minnesota.......61
Purdue..........61
Michigan St.....71
Iowa............71
Indiana.........71
 
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first of all, I'd love to see Texas in the BigTen but I just can't imagine it could be worked out because of 2 things:

1. the pressure to bring in aTm by the Texas Legislature.
2. Minor sports don't fly...they ride vans and buses because of the economics. It would be a stretch to see the policy change to flying the wrestling, gymnastics, swimming & diving, and field hockey teams.

your comparison is strictly on acadmics...which is a significant part of the mission but not all.

Also....Nebraska and Missouri would be mid-pack to slightly higher BigTen programs in Football. Nebraska brings nothing in BB but Missouri does. In the areas of minor sports those schools are pretty good. So while Mizzou and Nebraska wouldn't bring the BigTen up in athletics or academics, they would certainly bring money and ratings. Nebraska is on a bit of a rebound and won't always be 7-5 or even 8-4.....they will be a 9-3 type of team or better if they stay in the Big12.

As for Pittsburgh...I think that one is an obvious pick as long as PSU wants them in. But I had heard JoePa was against Pitt. If he still is and the PSU Admin backs JoePa, then they will not be allowed in the BigTen.

Syracuse is intriguing, but it brings less in all around sports than either Mizzou or Nebraska. I don't think the NY/NJ market follows Syracuse any more than they follow PSU or even Ohio State. NY/NJ is a pro sports market with pockets of followers of ND, OSU, PSU, UMich, UNC, Duke, UF, Texas, etc.....you get the picture.


glenn;1625887; said:
wow. thank you for the award and for the gestures of appreciation. much appreciated. and thank you, buckeyeskickbuttocks, for fixing the readability of the post. nice way to handle that.

i realize that i should show the other schools being discussed in that post and will amend it. it was intended to be a conference comparison from the texas viewpoint with the big 12 and sec thrown in for perspective, but adding the other teams extends it to be comprehensive of the larger question.

davey has posited that if three teams are added and we assume reality with respect to notre dame, the three should be missouri, nebraska, and pitt. here are the conference summaries as is and with that change:

Big Ten
avg 50.2
std dev 19.5
Northwestern . 12
Michigan .. . . . 27
Wisconsin .. . . 39
Illinois . . . . . . 39
Penn State .. . 47
Ohio State . . . 53
Minnesota .. . . 61
Purdue .. . . . . 61
Michigan St .. . 71
Iowa . . . . . . . 71
Indiana .. . . . . 71

Big Ten
avg 57.6
std dev 24.6
Northwestern 12
Michigan 27
Wisconsin 39
Illinois 39
Penn State 47
Ohio State 53
Pittsburgh 56
Minnesota 61
Purdue 61
Michigan St 71
Iowa 71
Indiana 71
Nebraska 96
Missouri 102


pitt certainly seems like a good fit. if you add three, i'd like it to be pitt and texas, but i'm having trouble coming up with a third. even with their athletic distress, i think notre dame would be ideal if all else was good. the success right now of pitt and texas would offset the struggles of the domers, and the prospect of their righting their ship would be enough in the eyes of the public to see the addition of the three schools in a very positive light. certainly those three additions would be a mega shot in the arm for market positioning.

syracuse would pass muster academically and their basketball program would be a fine addition. we all realize that football is the key, though, and i'd like a stronger program there. i also question how much coverage they would add. as fans, we don't think all that much about marketability and concentrate on issues like academics, reputation, and athletic competence, but i am told that the guys who handle the rudders of the programs pay very much attention to market share. money is a huge issue today and promises to be of much greater significance in the future.

right now rutgers looks like a good possibility. i don't think we can assume any huge market-share effect and the athletic program doesn't improve the perceived strength of the conference. moreover, there is no long history of athletic excellence that might see a resurgence. a good possibility, but not ideal.

any or all three of pitt, syracuse, and rutgers would improve jo-pa's dyspepsia, i suppose.

what about the domers? i mentioned them just now. what if they swallowed a little of their pride and came in? in my reading here, i've not seen much mention of cultural fit. how would notre dame fit in as a conference partner? all of us who know the feeling of great success from time to time have high opinions of ourselves and our programs, but i don't think any of us are prepared for the grandiose self-assessment the average domer possesses. and it is so out-of-bed with the reality of that program the past few years that i highly suspect they aren't a good fit anywhere but on a pedestal in the basement.

that brings up the subject of texas and cultural fit in the big ten. there is a lot of difference in the cultures of the southwest with respect to the upper midwest and east of there. my great suspicion is that many of the schools in the southwest would not work in the big ten. i've read here repeatedly, though, that buckeyes who have shared time with horns have come away with positive impressions, and i think that is indicative of a liitle bit broader outlook in the longhorn community than some of the others in the region, and i think that's what is driving many here to see us as a good all 'round fit.

now. the elephant in my thinking is texas a&m. a&m is a good school, but it is not lost on me that that name has not graced these pages. i've lived a good many years alongside them and a good way to pick my blood pressure up is to mention them. we all know the spirit of a tough rivalry, but this is different. on the surface they appear to be almost as good a fit here as texas, at least if you don't pay attention to their recent athletic woes. really, though, their history is that of a doormat. it took a very slimy jackie sherrill and the good services of the fedex guys to put them on the map for a while. worse . . . much worse, they are in horrible fiscal shape. years of mismanagement and paying multiple football head coaches at the same time have put them at the doorstep of bankrupcy. they tried to match texas in facilities and added a huge end zone project to their tackle-box stadium, but they only sell the thing out when somebody like texas comes to town. but much, much worse even than that -- and i'm sure you guys know it, but i just feel the need to get it in print -- is the cultural clash of college station, texas and the big ten. i'm sure you all have heard stories, but it is probably much worse than you can imagine. in my travels around the country the various places i've lived, i've learned to not tell all with respect to the gomers. at some point i lose my audience, so to speak. at some point my listener will decide i am making things up. no way this stuff could be true. some years ago i took my still-young daughter to an aggie game in austin. it so happened that two ags were sitting immediately behind us and they were extremely ugly and obnoxious. openly begging for injury to texas players and the like. trying to goad someone into an ugly encounter. just to our right were two fresh-grad ut young ladies, i gathered, and finally one of them turned on the ags after a particularly nasty comment and blasted them. i nudged the lady and asked her to leave the ags alone. i explained that i had been trying to paint a representative picture of a&m to my daughter but that it was difficult to get it across and not seem histrionic. these two guys, i told her, were doing a great job. the two gals hooted in laughter, and you never saw two nicer representatives in your life as those two clowns the rest of the game. i applaud your not mentioning them.


well, anyway, here i'm showing the big ten with texas and pitt. nothing but good from this vantage:

Big Ten
avg 50.4
std dev 17.9
Northwestern . 12
Michigan ....... 27
Wisconsin 39
Illinois 39
Penn State 47
Texas 47
Ohio State 53
Pittsburgh 56
Minnesota 61
Purdue 61
Michigan St 71
Iowa 71
Indiana 71
 
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exactly on target, brutus, including your speculation that texas might not make a move. i'm guessing in my comments, but it is a moderately educated guess. i think the iron is hot, and nowhere looks as good to me as up here.
 
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absolutely agree, davey, with nearly all that you said. i do think the texas legislature is not anything like the problem it was 15 years ago. i have heard it said that the state officials might balk at us going our own way until the other texas schools find homes. i think the days of remora programs is behind us, and texas tech, for example, has graduated from leech to leach.

glad you mentioned transporting non-revenue sports. deloss dodds reorganized ut athletics some years ago, winnowing it down to an affordable number. he said he wanted any athlete representing texas to have a quality experience. they eat well, sleep well, and travel well. what that means exactly is lost on me, but there it is.

yes, my recent stuff has accentuated academics because we have been assuming the good fit of texas athletically and market-wise. i've been talking primarily about other ways of fitting in that might influence whether we might be approachable.

i don't know about joe-pa and pitt, but your comments about the ny and northeast markets absolutely dovetail with my experience living on long island and coastal connecticut.
 
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that's a grouping i could live with, max. i'm guessing that a lot of the discomfort with pitt comes from the jackie sherrill days. now that i remember him, i guess anybody that could be happy with him wouldn't interest me.

might be other things, too, with joe-pa there. uhouston screwed texas several years ago on a deal, and i'm guessing everyone alive today will be way past influencing daisies before texas considers putting that canker on our schedule again.
 
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i just re-read your post, brutus. what you say about nebraska is so on target. if my memory serves, texas originally said we wouldn't join a conference that allowed partials, but nebraska got so labia-twisted that we came off it and said only two. apparently only two isn't cutting it for the huskers. they still spit venom over that. actually, don't read my comments about nebraska to mean that i don't like them. actually, i do. i don't think we can comfortably share a home with them, though. if the big ten brought them in, it would seriously hamper my enthusiasm. i don't think it is a possibility from nebraska's end. big ten life is not what they want.

also, i suspect your chances for getting a positive response from ut is better than your hottie analogy. i gotta think they would pay serious attention.

i think the word is already out that if mizzou leaves, taking its lucrative market, that we are history in the big 12. we are already very unhappy with the tv contract there. just a step or two beyond that is that we are history there anyway. a good salesman just might show them enough advantage to effect a major change in things.
 
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glenn;1625887; said:
what about the domers? i mentioned them just now. what if they swallowed a little of their pride and came in? in my reading here, i've not seen much mention of cultural fit. how would notre dame fit in as a conference partner? all of us who know the feeling of great success from time to time have high opinions of ourselves and our programs, but i don't think any of us are prepared for the grandiose self-assessment the average domer possesses. and it is so out-of-bed with the reality of that program the past few years that i highly suspect they aren't a good fit anywhere but on a pedestal in the basement.

You bring up a good point glenn. The real issue with the domers is that attitude is not confined to some pompous alums or overzealous fans, but rather is inherent to the school's administration. Say what we will about rival school's fans, most of us would agree that all of the Big Ten schools are run by pretty rational people.

I'm not so concerned with some arrogant domer fans as I am with their administration and how cooperative they are capable of being with the rest of the B10/CIC. They have a holier than thou (literally) attitude and a history of taking from their conference partners without giving.

The more thought I give to the domers, and the more I think about their grandstanding bullshit in 1999, I hope we say from the outset we're not interested in them and move on.
 
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glenn;1625902; said:
that's a grouping i could live with, max. i'm guessing that a lot of the discomfort with pitt comes from the jackie sherrill days. now that i remember him, i guess anybody that could be happy with him wouldn't interest me.

might be other things, too, with joe-pa there. uhouston screwed texas several years ago on a deal, and i'm guessing everyone alive today will be way past influencing daisies before texas considers putting that canker on our schedule again.

You do remember, glenn, that Bo first rejected the gomers' offer before Sherill took the job making him the first million dollar coach in college football. Bo flew back to Ann Arbor and said, "I asked myself what would Woody do?"
 
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ORD_Buckeye;1625917; said:
You do remember, glenn, that Bo first rejected the gomers' offer before Sherill took the job making him the first million dollar coach in college football. Bo flew back to Ann Arbor and said, "I asked myself what would Woody do?"
no, i didn't know that, ord. or maybe i didn't remember. great story. bo got it right, of course.

what you say about the domers is right, too. i have serious doubts they could be a partner. and, yes, the problem isn't some of them, it is all of them.
 
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LordJeffBuck;1625382; said:
Hmmm, same odds as Terrelle Pryor starting a game in 2008. I'd say it's a done deal.... :wink:

Wow... an obvious joke at my own expense and it takes another elitist prick to get it... :wink:

And I see it might work out like my other 10,000 to 1 shot. In both cases, I was confident given the information at hand; also in both cases, I didn't have all the information necessary to make good odds (but I was only serious in one of the cases...)

Since opining, albeit obliquely, that Texas would join the conference only when Hell freezes over and pigs fly; I have been educated a great deal by glenn's posts. I had no idea that there was a feeling among Texas 'lumni that their stay in the Big 12 needed to come to an end.

I am still against expansion in principle; but if it has to happen, and if it is at all possible, I seriously hope that Texas is at least part of the plan.
 
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i understand how you feel, daddy b. like you, my hope is that we come this way. someone once termed the big 12 as the big 8 with fender skirts and baby moons, and that seems about right. i can't imagine how pleased our guys would be to participate in a truly cooperative conference.

i wish i knew how prevalent the feeling of distaste is among longhorn supporters. after what happened to us last year, my guess is that it is very strong. bulletin boards aren't a very good indicator because a small percentage of boosters are posters. and i suspect a healthy percentage of posters are posers.
 
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BrutusBobcat;1626308; said:
Hey, I happen to like my odds with the hottie situation. :wink:
ok, we see it pretty much the same. just your luck with the random hottie is better than mine. even jilted hotties don't seem to care any more for my odds than they do my evens, which lead me to see it as a dire prediction. : )
 
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