Big Ten and other Conference Expansion

[kujirakira]

Yeap, you did.
Take your own advice buddy.

 

[Woody1968]

The suggestion that Purdue can resemble the University of Chicago in any way is laughable. And this comes from a Purdue graduate.

Your posts suddenly make a whole lot more sense now.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Strangely enough, if we are to believe Dave Rivsine's book, The Opening Kick Off, the University of Chicago was created as a football first school, with little to no regard for the academic side of the house.

That's ridiculous. Despite being only 10 years old in 1900, Chicago was a founding member of the AAU.

 

[dragurd]

Second read on the remarks of Boren - maybe he's talking to Texas - "take down LHN and help me get the others to take in two teams, move the CCG out of Jerry's place and stop being such a revenue hog." - and not to the Big Ten.

Oh course he's talking to Texas but the general consensus is those changes are never going to happen so it's put up or shut up time

 

[cincibuck]

That's ridiculous. Despite being only 10 years old in 1900, Chicago was a founding member of the AAU.

All I can say is Rivsine writes this is his book: "Rockefeller dreamed of using a portion of his fortune to start a major Baptist univ. in New York...but was persuaded to to look to Chicago instead... He hired William Rainey Harper as his president... to not simply create a univ from scratch, but also create one that would rise from nothing to instantly compete with Harvard, Yale and Princeton... Harper made football part of his plan... historian Robin Lester notes, "Harper saw football as an important means to elbow his way into the select circle of higher education." Harper sought out Amos Alonzo Stagg...His proposal to Stagg..."A tenured professorship and head of the PE Dept as well as coach."
Harper stated, "I want to develop teams which we can send around the country and knock out all the other colleges..."

 

[Muck]

 

[Dryden]

All I can say is Rivsine writes this is his book: "Rockefeller dreamed of using a portion of his fortune to start a major Baptist univ. in New York...but was persuaded to to look to Chicago instead... He hired William Rainey Harper as his president... to not simply create a univ from scratch, but also create one that would rise from nothing to instantly compete with Harvard, Yale and Princeton... Harper made football part of his plan... historian Robin Lester notes, "Harper saw football as an important means to elbow his way into the select circle of higher education." Harper sought out Amos Alonzo Stagg...His proposal to Stagg..."A tenured professorship and head of the PE Dept as well as coach."
Harper stated, "I want to develop teams which we can send around the country and knock out all the other colleges..."

These quotes can be true but aren't evidence that Chicago wasn't interested in their academic mission. Stanford wins the Directors Cup in a landslide every single year and nobody confuses them for an athlete factory. Being ambitious in athletics isn't mutually exclusive to being an elite academic institution.

Stagg also wasn't a football coaching ringer in that era like a free agent Nick Saban or Urban Meyer would be in the sport today. Stagg was a P.E. coach that made his mark largely on football longevity, but also coached the baseball team for two decades, coached basketball, organized intramural sports, club teams, and high school basketball tournaments to determine a high school champion. A lot of people don't recognize Stagg is also in the basketball Hall of Fame as the coach that pioneered basketball as a five-on-five game.

 

[cincibuck]

These quotes can be true but aren't evidence that Chicago wasn't interested in their academic mission. Stanford wins the Directors Cup in a landslide every single year and nobody confuses them for an athlete factory. Being ambitious in athletics isn't mutually exclusive to being an elite academic institution.

Stagg also wasn't a football coaching ringer in that era like a free agent Nick Saban or Urban Meyer would be in the sport today. Stagg was a P.E. coach that made his mark largely on football longevity, but also coached the baseball team for two decades, coached basketball, organized intramural sports, club teams, and high school basketball tournaments to determine a high school champion. A lot of people don't recognize Stagg is also in the basketball Hall of Fame as the coach that pioneered basketball as a five-on-five game.

But the point Revsine is making in his book is that around the turn of the century football had gained an out-sized foothold on American colleges - Harvard and Yale as well as Chicago. "Cobb Hall (the first building on the Chicago campus) wasn't finished when classes were scheduled to begin, but the school had a football team."

I'm trying to explain something in short posts that Revsine says in an entire book. As you read the book you find out that all of these schools willingly participated in practices that were every bit the equal of what Meyer and Saban can demand today. i.e. the more things change the more they remain the same.

 

[Dryden]

http://newsok.com/academics-matters-in-conference-realignment/article/5473247

...

“Just read your article on the Big 12 that mentioned AAU membership. Here's some background that may be useful to you. AAU membership and "Carnegie Classification" are the two best-known indications of elite academic status. There are 62 AAU members and 108 "Carnegie I" universities (all AAU members also are Carnegie I). Here's how the Power 5 conferences compare by those two criteria:

“Big 10: 14 members, 14 Carnegie I, 13 AAU
“PAC 10: 12 members, 12 Carnegie I, 8 AAU
“ACC: 15 members (including Notre Dame), 11 Carnegie I, 5 AAU
“SEC: 14 members, 11 Carnegie I, 4 AAU
“Big 12: 10 members, 4 Carnegie I, 3 AAU.

“The Big 12 is the only Power 5 conference with a majority of non-elite university members, which gives it an academic profile more similar to the various mid-major conferences.

“When Nebraska, Colorado, Missouri, and Texas A&M left the Big 12, that was an academic loss of 4 Carnegie I and 4 AAU members (although Nebraska subsequently lost its AAU status). In return, the Big 12 added West Virginia and TCU, neither of which is a Carnegie I institution. Of the current Big 12 members, Kansas State, OSU, TCU, West Virginia, Baylor and Texas Tech are unlikely to gain Carnegie I status in the next decade.

Cont'd ...

 

[cincibuck]

Great find, Dryden. Thanks.

 

[Muck]

The previous article mentioned by the writer Dryden's link is also worth taking a look at.

Does OU want the Big 12 to survive?

Big 12 stability and conference realignment has been all the rage this week, what with the NCAA deregulating, to a point, conference championship games and OU president David Boren detailing a plan for Big 12 stability. I blogged about this Thursday, which you can read here. The three-pronged plan, to be executed simultaneously: expand to 12 schools, add a conference championship game for football and fold The Longhorn Network into a Big 12 Network.

I get a lot of inquiries about these topics, so I thought I would try to answer them, based on conversations with a variety of people at OU and OSU.

.../cont/...

One thing that stood out that I've said before regarding Houston:

IF THE BIG 12 CAN FIND CONSENSUS ON EXPANSION?, WHO ARE THE EXPANSION POSSIBILITIES?

The usual suspects. Brigham Young and Boise State out West, Cincinnati and Connecticut back East. Those are the prime candidates. The Florida schools, South and Central, don’t seem to have much favor. And despite Houston’s excellent football season — and really, Houston’s long-term competitive history in the sport — the Cougars are a political no-go. The Big 12’s Texas schools do not want to add another Texas school to the mix, for recruiting and political reasons. OU and OSU are not quite as opposed to Houston.

 

[CincyInterloper]

Based on Dryden's post, I'm thinking OU is more likely to end up in the SEC than in the B1G. If the SEC picks up OU, who else do they invite to stay at an even number of schools? I figure someone from the ACC like Florida State. I'm sure the SEC would like one from North Carolina, but I don't see UNC or Duke moving, and I doubt the SEC would invite NC State.

 

[Muck]

Based on Dryden's post, I'm thinking OU is more likely to end up in the SEC than in the B1G. If the SEC picks up OU, who else do they invite to stay at an even number of schools? I figure someone from the ACC like Florida State. I'm sure the SEC would like one from North Carolina, but I don't see UNC or Duke moving, and I doubt the SEC would invite NC State.

The problem is that Oklahoma has no interest in the SEC.

From the article I linked:

WOULD OU BE INTERESTED IN THE SEC AND VICE VERSA?

The SEC absolutely would be interested in adding the Sooners. But I never have detected any interest in the SEC from anyone official at OU. Not from the academic side. Not from the athletic administration side. Not from the football side. Fans and media are infatuated with the SEC. No one from inside the university.

WOULD OU BE INTERESTED IN THE BIG TEN AND VICE VERSA?

The Big Ten would love to add OU. But there’s a huge catch. The Big Ten only admits schools who are in the Association of American Universities. The AAU is a prestigious group of schools that was founded by 14 universities and now numbers 60. The organization’s goal is to develop institutional and national policies that promote strong academic research and scholarship. In other words, it’s a Superiority Complex Club. But it’s incredibly prestigious, and Boren has worked for years, long before conference realignment was a gleam in anyone’s eye, to get OU admitted to the AAU.

It’s difficult to see OU invited to the Big Ten without AAU membership. Nebraska was an AAU member when invited to the Big Ten but was recently voted out of the AAU because of some research issue I didn’t really understand.

If OU ever was invited to the Big Ten, the answer would almost surely be yes, even if the Big 12 was shining like the sun. Big Ten admission if an academic boon to any university, athletics completely aside.

That mirrors what I have heard time and time again in following conference realignment over the past half decade or so.

 

[kujirakira]

The problem is that Oklahoma has no interest in the SEC.

From the article I linked:



That mirrors what I have heard time and time again in following conference realignment over the past half decade or so.

A lot of that makes sense... but at some point the other shoe has to drop?
If PAC is contingent on Texas (seems the case), and B1G isn't pulling the trigger (interest seems lukewarm, possibly contingent on Texas?) ... at what point do they consider SEC? OU isn't going to get AAU membership anytime soon to allay concerns there and geography isn't changing either*. They also have a violations history, which was allegedly considered for Nebraska. I'm sure OU's faculty would like to step up but what do B1G Presidents and faculty think about another non-AAU member? Similar could be said of PAC**
SEC would still be a big step up from their current situation just w/academics... and honestly seems to be peers for where OU sits on the academic landscape. Of course SEC has the only other successful 3rd tier network, great football traditions, historic members, etc. I find it hard to think nobody has even considered it.

*ACC schools may not have football prestige/history but they bring markets and recruiting... OU is Nebraska 2.0. That can be viewed positively (reuniting Big8 rivals and adding a big name to a weak division) or negatively (declining has-beens dependent on Texas recruiting in a conference with no schools in Texas; States with low populations)
**though PAC has a wider selection.. some outstanding and then some not-so-great. OU wouldn't be out of place with WSU, OSU, ASU, and Oregon (AAU but underperforming) and still get to "step up" with an elite crowd like USC, UCLA, Stan, Cal, UW, CU.

Based on Dryden's post, I'm thinking OU is more likely to end up in the SEC than in the B1G. If the SEC picks up OU, who else do they invite to stay at an even number of schools? I figure someone from the ACC like Florida State. I'm sure the SEC would like one from North Carolina, but I don't see UNC or Duke moving, and I doubt the SEC would invite NC State.

Kansas would be the most obvious choice. Adding a traditional power (OU) offset by a bottom feeder with basketball value and AAU membership.
Question is who moves to the East Division. Missouri to West, Bama and Barn to East would make geographical sense but [shrugs]

 

[cincibuck]

The question seems to be how long is Texas going to hold onto LHN. At some point in time someone is going to bolt from the Big 8 to 12, bringing down the whole conference.

I can't see FSU or Clemson leaving the ACC. They don't care that much about basketball and no one in the ACC is going to threaten their long term hold on football as long as ND continues to insist on semihole membership.

IMO, it all comes down to the ACC putting the full membership fire to Notre Dame and Oklahoma doing the same to Texas and LHN. In the next five years at least one of the prima donnas is going to have to pick someone to dance with.

It might be then that Notre Dame comes back to the Big Ten.