Big Ten and other Conference Expansion

[ORD_Buckeye]

+1 for everyone who's commented on the insanity of scheduling ND in football. We should not be lending any credibility to a struggling program whose administration consistently spits in the face of the Big Ten!

 

[muffler dragon]

Does the chance actually exist for freezing ND out when it comes to scheduling?

 

[zincfinger]

Does the chance actually exist for freezing ND out when it comes to scheduling?

I would think that's a decision for Purdue, MSU, and UM to make. You, I, Jim Delaney, or the presidents or AD's of the other BigTen schools can't make it for them.

 

[BB73]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the CCG was the main thing that destroyed the NU-OU rivalry. Rather, it was the division split, coupled with no mechanism to designate a "rival" in the other division to allow every-year meetings to continue to occur. The CCG hasn't destroyed the Texas-OU rivalry at all. Maybe you can argue that its diminished its importance somewhat, but living here in Dallas where its played annually, I'll guarantee you that it really hasn't hurt it noticeably.

The other thing that I think you can see if you look back, is that the historical OU-Nebraska and OU-Texas rivalries for decades prior to the Big 12 formation shows that its possible to have two fierce rivalries, without one really hurting the other. I'm certainly respectful of "The Game" and certainly have no thoughts of Nebraska-tOSU ever being able to supplant it, but I'm very much in favor of seeing a fierce rivalry develop between our two teams now - in addition, not instead of "The Game."

You're right that the Red River Shootout hasn't been diminished by divisions. The winner of that game has been in good position for the BCS Title game more often than not over the past decade. Part of that is due to the relative weakness of the North, with Colorado down, and your Huskers just recently bouncing back from the Callahan years.

But the timing of the RRS during the Texas State Fair moves it away from the December CCG. The traditional season-ending tussle between tOSU and TSUN would be impacted more by a CCG. Even though the Texas-aTm game is still a decent rivalry at the end of the regular season, Buckeye fans are hesitant about having a CCG shortly after The Game.

You other post made a good point about the separate divisions diminishing the UNL-OU rivalry because the B12 didn't protect the annual game like the SEC did in cases like Tenn-Bama.

 

[kn1f3party]

But the timing of the RRS during the Texas State Fair moves it away from the December CCG. The traditional season-ending tussle between tOSU and TSUN would be impacted more by a CCG. Even though the Texas-aTm game is still a decent rivalry at the end of the regular season, Buckeye fans are hesitant about having a CCG shortly after The Game.

This is probably where it is more relevant to compare what we are about to experience with the Iron Bowl. I don't know that doing so would make anyone feel better, but what we have is special in the world of college football. It may remind people of what they had or have, but it isn't the same and I don't think it will be changed easily by the addition of a CCG.

 

[DallasHusker]

I would argue that divisional splits and a CCG will diminish the OSU-UM rivalry somewhat, and that OSU & UM must be in the same division in order to minimize that diminishment. You say the CCG didn't diminish the OU-UTx rivalry? Of course it didn't, because OU and UT weren't even in the same conference before that. Putting two teams in the same conference with a CCG couldn't possibly diminish their "rivalry" relative to what it was previously when they were in different conferences altogether. If anything, it enhances it. But that's not the situation OSU and UM are in. They've been in the same conference for 100 years (give or take), and for much of that time, their game was the de facto conference championship game. Merely adding a CCG is going to diminish the rivalry somewhat - but in my opinion it's worth it, since it involves adding another national name program to the mix in UNL. But it is absolutely imperative that OSU and UM be in the same competition pool, i.e. in the same division. That way, their game can at least be for the right to go to the CCG. Put them in different divisions, and it becomes just a rivalry for rivalry's sake. Whatever cross-divisional rivalries the SEC has (Alabama-Tennessee? Please.) don't compare, nor did OU-UTx ever compare, especially when they were in different conferences. Nor, in my opinion, would OU-UNL have held its full significance, even if the BigXII had implemented a cross-divisional protected game between the two. Still a good game, but not the same thing - it would still have been second fiddle to OU-UTx.

Well stated, can't disagree with (or add much to) what you said. I'm convinced - OSU & UM in the same division - but please then PSU and NU in the other for more balance.

 

[cincibuck]

This is probably where it is more relevant to compare what we are about to experience with the Iron Bowl. I don't know that doing so would make anyone feel better, but what we have is special in the world of college football. It may remind people of what they had or have, but it isn't the same and I don't think it will be changed easily by the addition of a CCG.

In the case of the 70s a CCG would have made The Game superfluous. It would have merely been round 1 and in few of those years was there a number 3 worthy of consideration.

I can think of only one year in recent history, 2002, when a CCG would have been a) needed b) fair to both parties.

 

[DallasHusker]

You're right that the Red River Shootout hasn't been diminished by divisions. The winner of that game has been in good position for the BCS Title game more often than not over the past decade. Part of that is due to the relative weakness of the North, with Colorado down, and your Huskers just recently bouncing back from the Callahan years.

But the timing of the RRS during the Texas State Fair moves it away from the December CCG. The traditional season-ending tussle between tOSU and TSUN would be impacted more by a CCG. Even though the Texas-aTm game is still a decent rivalry at the end of the regular season, Buckeye fans are hesitant about having a CCG shortly after The Game.

You other post made a good point about the separate divisions diminishing the UNL-OU rivalry because the B12 didn't protect the annual game like the SEC did in cases like Tenn-Bama.

I notice that DaddyBigBucks has been referring to this as the Red River Whatever, so he probably knows - but for those who don't (since I'm a 30+ year Dallasite), that game for years - no, decades - had been called the Red River Shootout. A few years ago, political correctness run amuck resulted in an official name change to Red River Rivalry, as the longstanding name was deemed to be "too violent."

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Does the chance actually exist for freezing ND out when it comes to scheduling?

Probably not. Purdue and Sparty would need to have their arms severely twisted behind closed doors. ND is, arguably, the biggest game on Purdue's schedule unless they're a clear cut B10 contender in a given season. UM is clearly the bigger game for Sparty, but the domers are a close second. Sparty and Purdue both love the television exposure that the domer game brings them--nationally every other year and at least regionally when playing at home.

I'm not sure how attached UM is to their domer game. I think it's a much bigger deal on the domer side of things. Domers are still whining about Yost not liking Catholics.

 

[zincfinger]

Well stated, can't disagree with (or add much to) what you said. I'm convinced - OSU & UM in the same division - but please then PSU and NU in the other for more balance.

I'd be surprised if conference division scenarios weren't proceeding from the assumed starting point of UNL-PSU on one side and OSU-UM on the other.

 

[Piney]

Probably not. Purdue and Sparty would need to have their arms severely twisted behind closed doors. ND is, arguably, the biggest game on Purdue's schedule unless they're a clear cut B10 contender in a given season. UM is clearly the bigger game for Sparty, but the domers are a close second. Sparty and Purdue both love the television exposure that the domer game brings them--nationally every other year and at least regionally when playing at home.

I'm not sure how attached UM is to their domer game. I think it's a much bigger deal on the domer side of things. Domers are still whining about Yost not liking Catholics.

Another thing... I have heard alot of domers basically saying 'screw' the big ten and that they should drop their games with UM, MSU & Purdue and replace them with more national games. Then again, these are the same domer fans that would rather go to the ACC or Big 12 if the Big Ten destroys the Big East just to spite us.

So really... I think that threat really isn't a real one. As like you said, Sparty & Purdue probably need the Domers more than the Domers need them.

 

[zincfinger]

I notice that DaddyBigBucks has been referring to this as the Red River Whatever, so he probably knows - but for those who don't (since I'm a 30+ year Dallasite), that game for years - no, decades - had been called the Red River Shootout. A few years ago, political correctness run amuck resulted in an official name change to Red River Rivalry, as the longstanding name was deemed to be "too violent."

Chief Illiniwek disapproves of that name change.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

Penn State was available because some of their "traditional" rivals - namely Syracuse -- locked them out of the Big East.

They brought a winning tradition, a solid fan base, a 100K stadium that's filled for every game (versus the LA Coliseum), strong academics and an entr?e to Philly TV.

I have little doubt that if they'd joined the Big East they would be in the enviable position Notre Dame could be in if they joined -- lead dog in a conference with an automatic ticket to the BCS. Had the Big East taken Penn State in I think it's reasonable to believe they might have held onto Miami and FSU, locking up a sizable portion of the East Coast market.

In short I think Penn State has paid a hefty price to be in the Big 10 and the Big 10 is lucky to have them.

I'm going to counter this by reminding everybody: Fuck Penn State.

 

[Coqui]

I notice that DaddyBigBucks has been referring to this as the Red River Whatever, so he probably knows - but for those who don't (since I'm a 30+ year Dallasite), that game for years - no, decades - had been called the Red River Shootout. A few years ago, political correctness run amuck resulted in an official name change to Red River Rivalry, as the longstanding name was deemed to be "too violent."

At least you aren't Florida and Georgia with their rivalry game.

 

[ochre]

I'm going to counter this by reminding everybody: Fuck Penn State.

That's the type of vitriol from which rivalries arise.