Big Ten and other Conference Expansion

[BuckeyeNation27]

00-04 hurt them big time, and they've only made rose bowls when Michigan sucked and OSU had major issues at QB.And added a great one with OSU.[/27 friend]

Eh......I'll pretend I didn't read that last one because your first sentence was so good.

 

[zincfinger]

I was against PSU at the time and in retrospect it hasn't really helped them too much. But it hasn't hurt them either. They have been to a couple of Rose Bowls, but have not contended for any MNCs. Their "rivalries" with UMd, Pitt and Rutgers has disappeared, but those were pretty much one-sided to begin with.

I meant, do you think it was good for the BigTen conference, and most specifically for Ohio State? I wasn't considering whether it was good for Penn State, that's a matter for their fans.

I 100% agree with your statement of "you don't beg". The Big Ten asked ND to join once, they turned them down. Will asking them again be like begging?

Not in my opinion; there's a statute of limitations on that. If you ask a girl to Sr. Prom 7 years after she turned you down in 5th grade, that's not begging, it's two isolated events. Same thing here, in my view, but your mileage may vary.

 

[JCOSU86]

I meant, do you think it was good for the BigTen conference, and most specifically for Ohio State? I wasn't considering whether it was good for Penn State, that's a matter for their fans.

How do you measure how good it was for the conference? They have won some bowls, but got blown out of some too. A loss to them in 2008 cost OSU the Rose Bowl. A couple other losses have cost OSU also. I'm not sure they have been such a great thing for OSU, although they have given OSU some classic battles. Our piss-bottle-defense level has gone up though :)

Not in my opinion; there's a statute of limitations on that. If you ask a girl to Sr. Prom 7 years after she turned you down in 5th grade, that's not begging, it's two isolated events. Same thing here, in my view, but your mileage may vary.

Fair enough.

 

[zincfinger]

How do you measure how good it was for the conference? They have won some bowls, but got blown out of some too. A loss to them in 2008 cost OSU the Rose Bowl. A couple other losses have cost OSU also. I'm not sure they have been such a great thing for OSU. Our piss-bottle-defense level has gone up though :)

There's no way to measure it, it's strictly a matter of subjective opinion. For my part, I'm looking at it primarily from an entertainment value standpoint, secondarily from a national profile of the conference standpoint, and little-if-at-all from the angle of how it's impacted OSU's chances at playing in the BCS bowls or for the national championship. And in my view it's a net positive by those first two criteria, because the more games OSU plays against strong opponents and elite programs, the more entertaining the season is and the more national attention the BigTen gets. Going by the third criterion above, it would arguably be better if OSU joined the BigEast.

 

[DallasHusker]

Could not agree more with you about what happened to the Nebraska - OU rivalry. To prove it, I have quoted 3 of my own posts from (much) earlier in the thread where I argued against expansion, using the destruction of that rivalry as exhibit A.

Two things make me feel better about expansion, now that it's happened:

1. Since joining the board, UNL fans have illustrated how the Big 12 screwed the pooch when it came to that rivalry - and it was probably because UT sabotaged that rivalry on purpose to put more emphasis on the Red River Whatever. So The Game will still be hurt - but not as much as it might have been otherwise.
2. Nebraska: Isn't it ironic that the destruction of the UNL-OU rivalry actually made an expansion candidate available that was so attractive that you accept the consequences to The Game?

To this one I will add that you can replace Texas with Nebraska in the above post and the point stands, or is maybe even enhanced.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the CCG was the main thing that destroyed the NU-OU rivalry. Rather, it was the division split, coupled with no mechanism to designate a "rival" in the other division to allow every-year meetings to continue to occur. The CCG hasn't destroyed the Texas-OU rivalry at all. Maybe you can argue that its diminished its importance somewhat, but living here in Dallas where its played annually, I'll guarantee you that it really hasn't hurt it noticeably.

The other thing that I think you can see if you look back, is that the historical OU-Nebraska and OU-Texas rivalries for decades prior to the Big 12 formation shows that its possible to have two fierce rivalries, without one really hurting the other. I'm certainly respectful of "The Game" and certainly have no thoughts of Nebraska-tOSU ever being able to supplant it, but I'm very much in favor of seeing a fierce rivalry develop between our two teams now - in addition, not instead of "The Game."

 

[cincibuck]

I was against PSU at the time and in retrospect it hasn't really helped them too much. But it hasn't hurt them either. They have been to a couple of Rose Bowls, but have not contended for any MNCs. Their "rivalries" with UMd, Pitt and Rutgers has disappeared, but those were pretty much one-sided to begin with.

I 100% agree with your statement of "you don't beg". The Big Ten asked ND to join once, they turned them down. Will asking them again be like begging?

Penn State was available because some of their "traditional" rivals - namely Syracuse -- locked them out of the Big East.

They brought a winning tradition, a solid fan base, a 100K stadium that's filled for every game (versus the LA Coliseum), strong academics and an entr?e to Philly TV.

I have little doubt that if they'd joined the Big East they would be in the enviable position Notre Dame could be in if they joined -- lead dog in a conference with an automatic ticket to the BCS. Had the Big East taken Penn State in I think it's reasonable to believe they might have held onto Miami and FSU, locking up a sizable portion of the East Coast market.

In short I think Penn State has paid a hefty price to be in the Big 10 and the Big 10 is lucky to have them.

 

[Oh8ch]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the CCG was the main thing that destroyed the NU-OU rivalry. Rather, it was the division split, coupled with no mechanism to designate a "rival" in the other division to allow every-year meetings to continue to occur. The CCG hasn't destroyed the Texas-OU rivalry at all. Maybe you can argue that its diminished its importance somewhat, but living here in Dallas where its played annually, I'll guarantee you that it really hasn't hurt it noticeably.

Anybody who thinks OSU and Michigan should be in different divisions - please read the above carefully.

 

[Oh8ch]

Just reading through the 200 odd pages of this thread and it seems that we are finally nearing a consensus on what teams should be included in expansion.

That consensus being:

1. Any team that joins should be a Division I school.
2. It should not be a team that is already in the Big Ten.
3. It should not be Rice, Hawaii or Buffalo.
4. It may or may not be Notre Dame.

Let's keep hashing this out.

 

[FCollinsBuckeye]

Just reading through the 200 odd pages of this thread and it seems that we are finally nearing a consensus on what teams should be included in expansion.

That consensus being:

1. Any team that joins should be a Division I school.
2. It should not be a team that is already in the Big Ten.
3. It should not be Rice, Hawaii or Buffalo.
4. It may or may not be Notre Dame.

Let's keep hashing this out.

Hello?!?! Did you miss the discussion of going to a 13-game schedule about 20 pages back?

 

[DallasHusker]

Anybody who thinks OSU and Michigan should be in different divisions - please read the above carefully.

I think its possible to have them in separate divisions, IF done right. The SEC has done a good job there, IMO. Traditional rivals which are in opposite division are allowed to designate (two, I think?) "rivals" outside of their division, and continue to play those designated rivals every year. So it could be done without messing with "The Game" being still being the final (regular season) game for tOSU and TSUN every year. Of course, if they end up in opposite divisions, then there's the possibility of a rematch for the CCG.

With Nebraska's addition, I personally think that if tOSU and TSUN are in one division, then PSU & Nebraska should be in the other. While that doesn't work for a pure geographical split, I think that one division having tOSU, TSUN and PSU makes that division too top-heavy and the other one too light.

 

[DaddyBigBucks]

...

[strike]Two[/strike] 3 things make me feel better about expansion, now that it's happened:

1. Since joining the board, UNL fans have illustrated how the Big 12 screwed the pooch when it came to that rivalry - and it was probably because UT sabotaged that rivalry on purpose to put more emphasis on the Red River Whatever. So The Game will still be hurt - but not as much as it might have been otherwise.
2. Nebraska: Isn't it ironic that the destruction of the UNL-OU rivalry actually made an expansion candidate available that was so attractive that you accept the consequences to The Game?
3. Nebraska brings with them a cautionary tale about getting the divisions right to protect rivalries (as much as possible). They will actually be on board with making sure that what happened to them doesn't happen to anyone else - Which is quite different than the destruction that Texas brought with them when they joined the Big 8 and made it the Big 12.

...

FIFM

 

[Jaxbuck]

So it could be done without messing with "The Game" being still being the final (regular season) game for tOSU and TSUN every year. Of course, if they end up in opposite divisions, then there's the possibility of a rematch for the CCG.

A) no need for quotes, its simply The Game around these parts.
B) Even the possibility of a rematch is not something that 99.9% of us could live with. Well at least I couldn't.

With Nebraska's addition, I personally think that if tOSU and TSUN are in one division, then PSU & Nebraska should be in the other. While that doesn't work for a pure geographical split, I think that one division having tOSU, TSUN and PSU makes that division too top-heavy and the other one too light.

Absolutely agree. Geography be damned, set OSU and scUM on one side of the bracket and PSU/UN on the other. This will give you the best odds at balance year in year out.

 

[DaddyBigBucks]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the CCG was the main thing that destroyed the NU-OU rivalry. Rather, it was the division split, coupled with no mechanism to designate a "rival" in the other division to allow every-year meetings to continue to occur. The CCG hasn't destroyed the Texas-OU rivalry at all. Maybe you can argue that its diminished its importance somewhat, but living here in Dallas where its played annually, I'll guarantee you that it really hasn't hurt it noticeably.

...

What you're seeing there is exactly what led to point number 1 in my post.

My earlier posts were based on my understanding (lack thereof actually) that the CCG had affected your rivalry with OU. Husker fans explaining their feelings of bitterness for the Big 12, and tracing it back to the division split helped me see exactly what you're saying. That's why I made it point number 1.

I also agree with you that some diminution of rivalries is inevitable; but seeing the difference between the total destruction of the OU/UNL rivalry, coupled with the current state of the Red River Whatever has me willing to accept the change (mostly because it's inevitable anyway).

 

[zincfinger]

As a Husker, I agree with you. I will say though, that you can add and still be very mindful of traditions, resulting in minimal "muck up" or you can do what Texas, et al did do the Big 12 and totally trash tradition - like the Nebraska - OU rivalry, which I'd say used to be similarly intense and elite as tOSU - TSUN, but which essentially died with the Big 12...

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the CCG was the main thing that destroyed the NU-OU rivalry. Rather, it was the division split, coupled with no mechanism to designate a "rival" in the other division to allow every-year meetings to continue to occur. The CCG hasn't destroyed the Texas-OU rivalry at all. Maybe you can argue that its diminished its importance somewhat, but living here in Dallas where its played annually, I'll guarantee you that it really hasn't hurt it noticeably.

The other thing that I think you can see if you look back, is that the historical OU-Nebraska and OU-Texas rivalries for decades prior to the Big 12 formation shows that its possible to have two fierce rivalries, without one really hurting the other. I'm certainly respectful of "The Game" and certainly have no thoughts of Nebraska-tOSU ever being able to supplant it, but I'm very much in favor of seeing a fierce rivalry develop between our two teams now - in addition, not instead of "The Game."

I think its possible to have them in separate divisions, IF done right. The SEC has done a good job there, IMO. Traditional rivals which are in opposite division are allowed to designate (two, I think?) "rivals" outside of their division, and continue to play those designated rivals every year. So it could be done without messing with "The Game" being still being the final (regular season) game for tOSU and TSUN every year. Of course, if they end up in opposite divisions, then there's the possibility of a rematch for the CCG.

I would argue that divisional splits and a CCG will diminish the OSU-UM rivalry somewhat, and that OSU & UM must be in the same division in order to minimize that diminishment. You say the CCG didn't diminish the OU-UTx rivalry? Of course it didn't, because OU and UT weren't even in the same conference before that. Putting two teams in the same conference with a CCG couldn't possibly diminish their "rivalry" relative to what it was previously when they were in different conferences altogether. If anything, it enhances it. But that's not the situation OSU and UM are in. They've been in the same conference for 100 years (give or take), and for much of that time, their game was the de facto conference championship game. Merely adding a CCG is going to diminish the rivalry somewhat - but in my opinion it's worth it, since it involves adding another national name program to the mix in UNL. But it is absolutely imperative that OSU and UM be in the same competition pool, i.e. in the same division. That way, their game can at least be for the right to go to the CCG. Put them in different divisions, and it becomes just a rivalry for rivalry's sake. Whatever cross-divisional rivalries the SEC has (Alabama-Tennessee? Please.) don't compare, nor did OU-UTx ever compare, especially when they were in different conferences. Nor, in my opinion, would OU-UNL have held its full significance, even if the BigXII had implemented a cross-divisional protected game between the two. Still a good game, but not the same thing - it would still have been second fiddle to OU-UTx.

 

[DaddyBigBucks]

...Had the Big East taken Penn State in I think it's reasonable to believe they might have held onto Miami and FSU, locking up a sizable portion of the East Coast market.

...

The fact that you meant VaTech, not FSU, actually enhances your point.

FSU is huge in Tallahassee, has a minor following elsewhere in the State. They don't sellout when they stink (I've been to several games for less than ticket-face-value, and only the UF game was a sell-out (because of Gator fans)).

VPI on the other hand has Virginia mostly to itself and has a sizable following in the Washington DC area (they could deliver this area much better than Maryland in my opinion, in spite of their greater distance from it).