Big Ten and other Conference Expansion

[kn1f3party]

I've said it before, and it is worth noting again. Not that I support the decision, but adding Rutgers and/or Syracuse alone does not guarantee the NY metro area. However, we currently have 11 of the largest Universities with some alumni already in place in the NY metro area. It obviously takes more than being Syracuse or Rutgers to land that market, but I believe in what we already have to be attractive to most corners of the country.

 

[buckeyesin07]

Michigan State but not Indiana?

Also, Northwestern has won just as many Big Ten titles in the last 20 years as Penn State has. Everyone sit and chuckle at that for a minute or two.

Your point remains, adding teams just to add them without significantly improving something in the Big Ten is stupid... you just need a little work on your list of second tier teams.

I was giving Missouri a little more credit--that they're on par with MSU, NU, and Purdue, and above Indiana.

 

[Buckeye86]

I was giving Missouri a little more credit--that they're on par with MSU, NU, and Purdue, and above Indiana.

That makes more sense.

This is how I look at it.

Tier 1
Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
(Texas, Notre Dame)

between 1 and 2:Nebraska

Tier 2
Wisconsin
Iowa
Michigan State
(Texas A&M)

between 2 and 3: Missouri

Tier 3
Minnesota
Illinois
Northwestern

Tier 4
Purdue
Indiana
(any crap team from the East coast)

 

[zincfinger]

That makes more sense.

This is how I look at it.

Tier 1
Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
(Texas, Notre Dame)

between 1 and 2:Nebraska

Tier 2
Wisconsin
Iowa
Michigan State
(Texas A&M)

between 2 and 3: Missouri

Tier 3
Minnesota
Illinois
Northwestern

Tier 4
Purdue
Indiana
(any crap team from the East coast)

If you're ranking the football programs solely there, I think it's short-sighted to rank Nebraska outside the elite of the 1st tier. Sure, they've been mediocre recently, but so has Notre Dame. Virtually all elite programs go through downcycles on occasion, but programs like Nebraska, Notre Dame, Michigan, and Penn State recently, have too much tradition and consequent recruiting clout to not pull out of it eventually. So I think Nebraska football is right up there with the best. I'd consider them the weakest of the tier 1's, or possibly the best of the tier 2's, primarily because of basketball. For similar reasons, if you consider the total package (which to me is dominated first by football and second by men's basketball), BigTen schools like MSU, Indiana, and Illinois deserve a little higher ranking than what you gave them.

 

[jwinslow]

When Nebraska football is down, they can't walk into living rooms across america and attract superstar recruits based on their name. Notre Dame can.

I'd consider them the weakest of the tier 1's, or possibly the best of the tier 2's, primarily because of basketball

Boy, that characterization sounds familiar

 

[BB73]

When Nebraska football is down, they can't walk into living rooms across america and attract superstar recruits based on their name. Notre Dame can.

Another way to question Nebraska not being in football Tier 1:

Since Penn State joined the Big Ten, Nebraska has as many National Championships as JoePa has Big Ten Titles.

I'll save Mr Ubet the trouble - only Florida can also make that claim.

 

[cincibuck]

I don't have numbers to support this, but I wonder if adding Notre Dame would do more to lock up the NYC market than adding both Syracuse and Rutgers.

Is Bishop Fulton Sheen dead? Count on it. Throw in UConn too.

 

[zincfinger]

When Nebraska football is down, they can't walk into living rooms across america and attract superstar recruits based on their name. Notre Dame can.

Maybe not, but probably neither can Penn State. For that matter, probably neither could Ohio State. Notre Dame benefits from a special level of media attention, no doubt about that. Regardless, Nebraska can pull hard enough that I personally am pretty confident they are in a temporary downcycle, rather than in irreversible decline.

Boy, that characterization sounds familiar

I have read the whole thread, but I don't specifically remember each post in it. I'm sure I've repeated multiple points previously made by others.

 

[BB73]

I have read the whole thread, but I don't specifically remember each post in it. I'm sure I've repeated multiple points previously made by others.

I took that as a shot at TSUN.

 

[zincfinger]

I took that as a shot at TSUN.

Good point, although it could perhaps be taken more appropriately as a shot at Penn State, in that PSU, to the best of my knowledge, has never been better than decent in basketball, and is often worse. It seems to me a Nebraska addition would be similar to the Penn State addition, which I loved. Being an OSU fan, I like the Penn State addition a bit better, mainly because PSU provides an elite, natural rival to OSU, whereas Nebraska would provide an elite, natural rival to Iowa. But I think in the most important respects, Nebraska and PSU are pretty similar athletic entities (elite football, weak-to-mediocre basketball). For that reason, I'm moving toward the conclusion that I could be somewhat satisfied with an expansion that didn't include Texas or ND, as long as it included Nebraska and not too many "filler" schools.

Along the lines of natural rivals between current BigTen schools and potential new schools, I wonder how the "protected rivalry" system is going to pan out. I'm sure that depends to some extent on the number of schools added and the consequent realignment, but is it likely to remain two protected rivalries per program? While rivalries could be fairly easily protected simply by putting rivals in the same division, this seems like a recipe for creating an unbalanced "strong" division(s)/"weak" division(s) scenario. Obviously any system will continue to protect OSU/UM, and I'd like to see OSU/PSU remain protected. What if ND is added? In addition to UM's rivalry with OSU, their rivalry with MSU pretty much has to be protected as well, but I'd think it would be difficult to turn down a protected annual match between UM and ND. Or would Notre Dame be relegated to protected annual games against Purdue and Indiana, the latter of which I'd imagine wouldn't exactly encourage the Domers to look favorably upon the prospect of joining the conference.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

I think they'd have Purdue and Sparty as ND's protected rivalries.

 

[zincfinger]

I think they'd have Purdue and Sparty as ND's protected rivalries.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking was most likely simply by virtue of the fact that ND has been playing annual games against Purdue and MSU. But, from the Notre Dame standpoint, I think you'd like to have at least one protected conference rivalry against a program of similar caliber to your own. And from that standpoint, as well as a general entertainment standpoint, what I would probably prefer to see would be for Penn State and ND to dispatch with their annual games against MSU and take on an annual game against each other. They can call it The War of Independence, or something like that. If anything, it beats The Land Grant Trophy.

 

[Piney]

Along the lines of natural rivals between current BigTen schools and potential new schools, I wonder how the "protected rivalry" system is going to pan out. I'm sure that depends to some extent on the number of schools added and the consequent realignment, but is it likely to remain two protected rivalries per program? While rivalries could be fairly easily protected simply by putting rivals in the same division, this seems like a recipe for creating an unbalanced "strong" division(s)/"weak" division(s) scenario. Obviously any system will continue to protect OSU/UM, and I'd like to see OSU/PSU remain protected. What if ND is added? In addition to UM's rivalry with OSU, their rivalry with MSU pretty much has to be protected as well, but I'd think it would be difficult to turn down a protected annual match between UM and ND. Or would Notre Dame be relegated to protected annual games against Purdue and Indiana, the latter of which I'd imagine wouldn't exactly encourage the Domers to look favorably upon the prospect of joining the conference.

It is a very interesting point. The protected rivalries coming out of the expansion is going to be very interesting. Especially integrating the new teams into new rivalries, or figuring out ahead of time what rivalries would be. Missouri v Illinois, Nebraska v Iowa & Penn St v Pitt/Syracuse/Rutgers are ready made. But some could feel really forced if trying to create a 2nd rivalry for the new teams and then killing current forced rivalries.

One reason I do like the pod system in a 16 team conference. It allows for more rotation of teams and then begs the question how to determine that 8th conference game. 9 conference games actually makes things easier meaning you play your pod + another pod and then have protected games with one team with each pod. But does 9 conference games hurt the conference? Especially with 5v4 home/away splits in conference. This also allows certain rivals to be placed in split pods.

 

[zincfinger]

Missouri v Illinois, Nebraska v Iowa & Penn St v Pitt/Syracuse/Rutgers are ready made.

I agree on the former two. And if Pitt were to be added, a PSU/Pitt protected rivalry would and should be pretty much automatic. I'm not sure PSU/Syracuse or PSU/Rutgers should be automatic though (even in the absence of Pitt). There's a geographic element to rivalries (like UM/MSU), but there's also a comparable caliber element, and PSU/Syracuse and PSU/Rutgers would generally be just a protected auto-win for PSU. Not much entertainment value there. If Pitt and Notre Dame were both added, I think it would perhaps merit consideration for OSU to relinquish the PSU rivalry and let Pitt and ND have PSU, despite the fact that OSU/PSU has been a great matchup.

 

[kn1f3party]

In my opinion there are only two ways that this works out well for us. The first is that we land a big fish like Texas or Notre Dame. At that point, it wouldn't really matter what else we did as in many circles it would be viewed as a successful addition. The other way it works out well for the conference is if through a combination of mid to high tier 2 and low tier 1 teams we put together the right combination. A scenario that involved both Missouri and Nebraska would be acceptable in my eyes as long as the other teams involved didn't drag it down.

Things to think about though, whichever teams we lead with will likely dictate the rest of the hand. If we lead with Nebraska and Missouri, we could get Iowa State as well without difficulty and all of a sudden the conference doesn't seem so alien to a school like Texas. Essentially, we force a Big XII collapse to get Texas.

On the other hand, if we pull in a Syracuse / Rutgers / UConn I think we're simply trying to collapse the Big East and get Notre Dame. In my opinion these are your only real scenarios. Both would likely include Missouri, but the rest of your teams are likely Big XII or Big East + Notre Dame if we're really wanting to make a statement with 16 teams.