Abortion debate (Split from Obama Thread)

[billmac91]

Breakin' My Balls | The Daily Show | Comedy Central

33 Aborted Fetuses | The Daily Show | Comedy Central

enjoy.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

What do you propose, should abortion become banned, we do with the hundreds of thousands of unwanted children that will necessarily be born as a result? What are the larger consequences of kids (say a 15 year old) being parents? Are you prepared to deal with those expenses, such as an increase in the number of state run orphanages? Or, is it "Make it illegal" and people will stop being stupid and there wont be any issue? I'm not trying to sound like a dick... I'm just wondering what you're willing to pay for. And truly... most Anti-Abortion folks I meet have no answer to these questions.... I hope you do.

I'm not going to pretend it's not an issue, it's a huge one and a very complicated one. None of those issues are enough to make me change my mind. But furthermore even though I believe beyond the shadow of a doubt I am right, I do not ever believe America is going back.

For this part of the discussion remember that I'm only a software developer and not a lawyer or lawmaker. My solution is somewhat 2 pronged.

1.) Considering my stance on Abortion, I bet you can figure out my stance on in vitro fertilization. How many viable human lives are thrown away? Outlaw it too. This would result in an increase in couples seeking adoption. Another interesting comment about adoption is that some families are having to go outside of the US to adopt. I believe in most (not all) situations these families would prefer adopt in the US. Realizing that this is still not enough:

2.) Yes, state run orphanages but with some changes. We already implement child support for split parents. What I'm thinking is something similar and with more teeth. In the situation that neither parent is willing to take the child and there is no adoptive family both parents would then be responsible to pay child support to the state. Hopefully the idea that an unwanted pregnancy would cost real money would be a deterrent also. I know a state run orphanage is not as desirable as real family unit but still gives the opportunity for life.

AS well you should... but, you must concede that not everyone agrees that it is murder, no?

I'm honestly not sure how that changes what I would do in the situation given what I believe.

Huh... that is weird. No answer...

I do not know how BP's software runs for sure, but now that I've had a few minutes to think about it, I don't think a "Quick Reply" refreshes the whole page. It likely only appends your new post and any new posts to the page. Which would explain the different versions of your post on the page I saw.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I'm honestly not sure how that changes what I would do in the situation given what I believe.

What YOU would do, given what YOU believe, isn't at issue. Incidentally, What Ryn would do would probably come as a surprise to you, considering her "keep your laws off my body" approach.

I posted earlier, I'm all but certain the anti-abortion side eventually wins. You guys have passion.. the pro-choice folks are fighting for an intellectual idea.... In a nut shell, I think, when you weigh interest, the AntiAbortion folks are in for the long haul.

You mention child support with more teeth. I happen to know a good deal about how that operates in Ohio. The per-diam is too high for your idea to work - it's prohibitive. What I mean is, x amount of bucks (% of income) per month may not sound like a lot to you but is prohibitive to the people it effects. Thinking you can get more in my experience isn't feasible. When I was collecting Child Support (I mean for the state, not for me personally), the amount we took from parents - quite sizable to their budgets - did not cover 10% of the cost. These people can't pay more.. well.. I guess they could to some extent, but at the expense of their own meager hopes for any kind of society benefitting success. I guess to me, we shouldn't be in the business of breaking people. That doesn't help anyone, you know?

ANyway, at least you have an answer to the questions. That's better than most.

 

[shetuck]

WHAT I WANNA KNOW IS WHAT'S OBAMA GONNA DO ABOUT ALL THOSE DOO MONSTERS!

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

What YOU would do, given what YOU believe, isn't at issue.

I'm sorry I don't think I was clear. I meant what I would do if I was a lawmaker.

Incidentally, What Ryn would do would probably come as a surprise to you, considering her "keep your laws off my body" approach.

I actually wouldn't be surprised. I believe I understand what you're implying. When we met, my wife would never have chosen to abort a child, however she vehemently defended a woman's right to choose. We had many heated discussions on the issue, but finally she did agreed with me. Her new position she said was firmly confirmed by her first pregnancy.

Side note: This is also why Romney's switch on this particular issue didn't bother me.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

This is officially the most different abortion conversation I've ever had, thank you BKB.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I'm sorry I don't think I was clear. I meant what I would do if I was a lawmaker.

Oh, gotcha.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Yes, I'm willing to break people for sending a child to a state orphanage because they couldn't be responsible. Not that I want too. Just better than abortion. It also makes a nice deterrent to both not be careful and not put kids in State run facilities. Also federal money that currently goes to planned parent hood could go to these state orphanages. That would be in the hundreds of millions per year I believe.

I find it interesting that I don't believe Abortion will be made illegal while you do.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Yes, I'm willing to break people for sending a child to a state orphanage because they couldn't be responsible. Not that I want too. Just better than abortion. It also makes a nice deterrent to both not be careful and not put kids in State run facilities. Also federal money that currently goes to planned parent hood could go to these state orphanages. That would be in the hundreds of millions per year I believe.

I find it interesting that I don't believe Abortion will be made illegal while you do.

Breaking people comes with a whole host of other issues that would need to be addressed, though... including increases in crime and drug use, I'd think. I'm not a fan of the parade of horribles, but this seems to me fairly evident. Even if not, under this plan wouldn't we be increasing homelessness at a minimum? I can't see how that would benefit society in the long run... so I guess I'm saying the cost of social programming would rise if abortion was illegal.... and that seems at odds with the general philosophy of most of the people I know who are opposed to Abortion (read: righties, though it's surely not righties exclusively)

 

[BuckeyeRyn]

When we met, my wife would never have chosen to abort a child, however she vehemently defended a woman's right to choose. We had many heated discussions on the issue, but finally she did agreed with me. Her new position she said was firmly confirmed by her first pregnancy.

I can't be broken merely by a few heated discussions...

I assure you, you won't change my stance on this issue because I am not so arrogant to think I should have say over anyone but myself and my children (until they are adults) but I am very curious what it is you had to say to your wife that caused her to switch her mind from, "It isn't for me to it isn't for ANY other women either."

I really do have a hard time for anyone telling anyone else what they can and can't do with their body...

If I am raped and end up pregnant, what on God's green earth gives you the right to tell me I can't abort?

If I am in serious jeopary of loosing my life enduring this pregnancy, what gives you the right to tell me I can't abort?

Crap, times up, gotta get to work.

 

[BuckeyeRyn]

Yes, I'm willing to break people for sending a child to a state orphanage because they couldn't be responsible. Not that I want too. Just better than abortion. It also makes a nice deterrent to both not be careful and not put kids in State run facilities. Also federal money that currently goes to planned parent hood could go to these state orphanages. That would be in the hundreds of millions per year I believe.

I find it interesting that I don't believe Abortion will be made illegal while you do.

Honestly, do you live in a bubble? take off your rose colored glasses and listen to what you are saying.... lots and lots of kids growing up in loveless facilities, hmmm, should be interesting to see what happens to the world when they become adults...

 

[AKAK]

I think we've arrived to the point I was trying to make. Unlike BKB, I have arrived at a conclusion; that is a human life is a human life is a human life regardless of stage of development. I am certain of this beyond all reasonable doubt. Until I was certain I preferred to err on the side of life. I will not argue this point with anyone because it's not the point I was arguing.

The point I was arguing: holding the above belief how could I not let my values (religious ones) affect policy decision if I were a lawmaker? Remember, I believe those aborted children are my constituents too.

Furthermore, please, we all know what I mean when I say murder. My dad didn't email and tell me that my sister's rapist had been charged with attempted homicide, he said attempted murder. Should I have asked him whether he got caught trying to kill a fly? This isn't a trial. You all knew what I meant.

AKAK, you say the bumper sticker should read "Abortion should be murder." I'm fine with the way it is because much like the word marriage I don't let government define words for me.

Yes, but the point you tried to make is completely incorrect.

See... your sister's rapist (and I am very sorry to hear about that) was not charged with attempted homocide because it is illegal to try to kill your sister.

With me?

And no we don't all know what you mean when you say murder, because you are using the word incorrectly.

The government did not define it that way... its called the the English language.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

I can't be broken merely by a few heated discussions...

I assure you, you won't change my stance on this issue because I am not so arrogant to think I should have say over anyone but myself and my children (until they are adults) but I am very curious what it is you had to say to your wife that caused her to switch her mind from, "It isn't for me to it isn't for ANY other women either."

I really do have a hard time for anyone telling anyone else what they can and can't do with their body...

If I am raped and end up pregnant, what on God's green earth gives you the right to tell me I can't abort?

If I am in serious jeopary of loosing my life enduring this pregnancy, what gives you the right to tell me I can't abort?

Crap, times up, gotta get to work.

It probably isn't just one thing that convinced my wife. I do believe that the central issue is whether you believe the unborn child to be a separate human life. She finally came to that same conclusion I had, but didn't immediately come to the end that abortion should be illegal. I really believe that the logical conclusion once one is faced with the issue that abortion kills a human life is that abortion is wrong for everyone. It's definitely not like one morning she woke up and said, "I agree with you, Scott." It was a gradual process. Mixed in with the objective debate was the real subjective issue of her parents' forcing of her sister to have one at age 17. She really struggled with if she accepted that abortion was wrong for everyone, what does that mean for her sister. I told her #1 we forgive, #2 She was 17 and her parents were to blame.

The idea that we don't want the government telling us what to do with our children only goes so far though. If I told you that I get my wife pregnant so she could have babies that I could then sacrifice to Zeus at 3 months old, you would think I should be arrested and thrown in jail. In American society parents do not have the right to murder or physically harm their children.

Do you realize before the 1st trimester the unborn baby has eyes, a heart, and hands, as well as the beginnings of plenty of other organs. Logically, I can't accept the idea that development defines humanity. Is a retarded person less human than you because he/she is less developed? I'm sure if we tried hard enough we can find many problems with defining humanity by development.

Rape issues and choosing between the life of a mother and child are definitely gray areas. I'm definitely willing to concede an abortion given the woman's decision to save her life. But I'm not willing to allow the millions of other abortions for the small 1% either. My sister was recently raped. My sister has had an abortion before. She knows how I feel about said issue. But If you believe all of the above even with how awful rape is are we sure we want to punish the innocent unborn child for what some evil man did? I can't promise I have all the answers. Who does?

Honestly, do you live in a bubble? take off your rose colored glasses and listen to what you are saying.... lots and lots of kids growing up in loveless facilities, hmmm, should be interesting to see what happens to the world when they become adults...

I did say that state run orphanages are far from ideal. But its better than murder. At least they have a chance at life.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Yes, but the point you tried to make is completely incorrect.

See... your sister's rapist (and I am very sorry to hear about that) was not charged with attempted homocide because it is illegal to try to kill your sister.

With me?

And no we don't all know what you mean when you say murder, because you are using the word incorrectly.

The government did not define it that way... its called the the English language.

I'm sorry, so you don't understand what may dad said when he said attempted murder?

If I believe abortion is the premeditated deliberative killing of unborn human being, and murder is the premeditated deliberative killing of a human, would it be logical that since unborn humans are a subset of humans then abortion is a subset murder? Would it not be proper to say "A Sycamore is a tree"?

 

[AKAK]

I'm sorry, so you don't understand what may dad said when he said attempted murder?

If I believe abortion is the premeditated deliberative killing of unborn human being, and murder is the premeditated deliberative killing of a human, would it be logical that since unborn humans are a subset of humans then abortion is a subset murder? Would it not be proper to say "A Sycamore is a tree"?

No that wouldn't be logical at all.

Premeditated deliberative killing of unborn humans is not unlawful.

Premeditated deliberatative killing of a human is unlawful.

Get it?

See.... your dad didn't say "attempted homcide" because homocide without an adjective isn't a crime and they wouldn't charge someone with it on its own... this is why there are things like "Justifiable Homicide" and "Negligent Homocide" etc, etc.

Anyway, if anyone cares, AKAK's pathetic view of abortion and "liberty"

http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/...-debate/10650-death-penalty-2.html#post147742