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- Thread starter t_BuckeyeScott
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t_BuckeyeScott;1132049; said:
Charged and convicted are two different things. Hell, I could charge you for murder for no reason at all. No way you'd be convicted, which is of course, the relevant part.
My guess is, under your hypo - you might be charged with murder, sure.. hell, you might even get convicted of it... but, you could also quite easily get mitigated down to 2nd degree (killing without intent) etc.
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OK... then your hypo is narrowly tailored to produce an intended result and not intended to serve as an instructional.t_BuckeyeScott;1132056; said:
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I, personally, have a problem bringing the decision of the parents to have sex into a discussion of the "humanness" of the baby. I feel that these disparate subjects should be conquered (hopefully) in isolation first. Perhaps that is impossible. . .
What if I had a tumor in me, a growing tumor that should be benign but would last for 8 months before it could be removed. It causes some discomfort, a lot at times. What if this tumor manufactured some antibiotic that was the only way to keep my 2 year old baby alive, and what if it was the only source? What it be murder, or homicide, if I had the tumor removed? It is my body, is it not? Can what I do with my body impugn my level of care of the baby to the point of murder?
I guess it is impossible to separate the source, the decision to have sex (unprotected/protected with failure/otherwise), from the inherent responsibility or lack of responsibility. Still, human? A baby can be taken by the state, adopted, given up for adoption. It need not be endangered or neglected by the mother with the only result being its death. A fetus is not that. I don't, frankly, know what I think it is. Cute?
What if I had a tumor in me, a growing tumor that should be benign but would last for 8 months before it could be removed. It causes some discomfort, a lot at times. What if this tumor manufactured some antibiotic that was the only way to keep my 2 year old baby alive, and what if it was the only source? What it be murder, or homicide, if I had the tumor removed? It is my body, is it not? Can what I do with my body impugn my level of care of the baby to the point of murder?
I guess it is impossible to separate the source, the decision to have sex (unprotected/protected with failure/otherwise), from the inherent responsibility or lack of responsibility. Still, human? A baby can be taken by the state, adopted, given up for adoption. It need not be endangered or neglected by the mother with the only result being its death. A fetus is not that. I don't, frankly, know what I think it is. Cute?
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t_BuckeyeScott
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Then lets change my hypo to me dropping someone off in space with no oxygen tank. Or I lock them in an air tight safe. Or a number of things. The point is that if I were to purposefully and knowingly put a person in a position in which they cannot survive it would be considered murder. Well we know that a 1 month gestational human cannot survive outside the womb.
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t_BuckeyeScott
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I believe you're mixing up my points. I was responding to how BKB said my thoughts on a 1 month gestational baby would be congruent with my thoughts on responsibilities of parents who won't take their children.
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t_BuckeyeScott;1131932; said:
No, we really didn't get anywhere other than you figured out what the definition of murder is.
See, even if God 'says' its murder, its because you believe its against God's law(s). Not because you say its murder or someone else says its murder... which is all you've done up to now.
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t_BuckeyeScott
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Please forgive for not realizing I had to explain that the killing of an unborn baby is unlawful by the law given out by God.
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But, you're skipping over the substantial dissimilarity. The ability to self sustain life in the first place. Can a thing which cannot live on its own qualify as being killed? To be clear.. I'm saying the fetus cannot physically survive on it's own.. that is.. breath, etc.. It's true a baby of 1 month old cannot provide for itself, but it still can survive on its own for a period of time. Like the baby, the guy you send in to space, otherwise, could also provide for and sustain his own existence.t_BuckeyeScott;1132092; said:
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t_BuckeyeScott
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Only in the right environment.And I believe you're skipping over the substantial similarity. A person cannot survive in a locked safe.
I might regret doing this but another similarity might be a parasite. Some parasites require a host to survive. Can you kill a parasite?
EDIT:
So I guess degrees of dependence should be added to my list of things that don't define humanity.
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t_BuckeyeScott;1132135; said:
I'm not ignoring the similarity, I'm aware of it. But, with the dissimilarity present, I don't know that the metaphor stands for the proposition you offer it, is all. Personally, I think it's just enough for you to say you believe it's murder. But, I'm not sure there is any way to convince someone else it is - short of delving in to when "life" becomes "life" No doubt you say conception... but.... people - and for rational reasons - disagree. That doesn't mean they're right, or that you are... it's just that it's not as open as shut to everyone as it is to you.
I have no problems killing parasites.. especially those that invade my body and cause me illness. I kill bugs, and I don't really feel too bad for too long when I have the rare misfortune of hitting a bird with the car, or the like. there's all kinds of life we routinely kill .. I guess is my point. The chief issue is we would (quite naturally) hold human life in a higher regard.
It doesn't HAVE to be that way. Hell... we are even allowed to kill eachother in the right situations, and we don't even call that murder. If, for example, we're invaded... we feel perfectly justified killing our invaders... but.. it's really just us justifying an act, isnt it? I suppose you could argue it's the "innocent" death at issue.. but, there again... we - as a race (the human race) - are not immune to killing innocents. I'm not saying doing so is RIGHT, understand, just that it's possible.. and the reason it's wrong - as AKAK has been harping on with you, is a matter of our own opinions whether individually or societally, or both.
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t_BuckeyeScott
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I really think Akak and I are just having a misunderstanding. You might remember that I don't believe you can prove anything is morally wrong without a moral lawgiver (I hope we can recognize this is discussion for another time and another place). And I was saying that based on my belief, as a policy maker I would be forced to act on my religious belief, that abortion is murder. I better qualify that. I believe that moral law requires that abortion is murder, so US law should reflect that truth.
I didn't ask if you would kill a parasite, I asked if you could given your question of can you kill something that can't survive on its own.
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fair enough, which is why I'd rather get back to talking about the consequential issues of such a decision being made politically... the costs and how to deal with them. Kinch mentioned a few that I hadn't thought of.... I'm sure there are others.t_BuckeyeScott;1132188; said:
Ah.. misunderstood ya.
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Also, regarding some of these hypothetical scenarios, there is a difference between putting a human in a possibly deadly situation and starting a chain of events, possibly with no intent (broken condom), that leads to the eventual existence of a human who is then in a possibly deadly situation.
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t_BuckeyeScott;1132188; said:
No, no misunderstanding, if you'll notice I've been drving at this all along...
So, my question is why should US Law reflect the "that truth*?"
Should we also legislate resting on the Sabbath or the worship of false idols? (To my earlier question, And Yes Commissioner Goodell, they really were questions.
)Its not meant to be the end-all-be-all to the argument, but, moral law isn't the only reason we don't like grown-ups going around and killing other grown-ups. Same as stealing... if you get my drift.
Morality aside, if you killed me... there is a tangible impact. I would no longer be able to work to support and feed my daughter. If you stole my car I could no longer get to work.... very measureable problems.
I don't at all have a problem that you believe that abortion is wrong, in the least. My issue is why you think that you need to enforce that belief on everyone else?
So we all taking Sunday off now too?
*quotes were really just to quote the words, not to mock
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