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- Thread starter t_BuckeyeScott
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Still, even using a legal definition of "murder," as long as BuckeyeScott considers a fetus (whatever "age") to be human, he still considers abortion murder by definition as long as others see a fetus as human as well (otherwise the doctor would not possess the requisite mens rea). If we assume that an individual allocates his own views on others, in this case the doctor, than we have a reasonable explanation for the view that abortion is murder by definition, ignoring the legal definition of "human" or "other."
Okay, I ended up with way many more "ifs" in the above response than I expected, completely taking the point out of my post-- awesome.
The point at which I intended to arrive, ignoring technical or possible hyper-technical considerations, is that it is, in a lay sense, perfectly reasonable to consider abortion to be murder, even when using the legal definition (but not considering the issue in a purely legal context).
Um, yeah.
Okay, I ended up with way many more "ifs" in the above response than I expected, completely taking the point out of my post-- awesome.
The point at which I intended to arrive, ignoring technical or possible hyper-technical considerations, is that it is, in a lay sense, perfectly reasonable to consider abortion to be murder, even when using the legal definition (but not considering the issue in a purely legal context).
Um, yeah.
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t_BuckeyeScott
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I think we've arrived to the point I was trying to make. Unlike BKB, I have arrived at a conclusion; that is a human life is a human life is a human life regardless of stage of development. I am certain of this beyond all reasonable doubt. Until I was certain I preferred to err on the side of life. I will not argue this point with anyone because it's not the point I was arguing.
The point I was arguing: holding the above belief how could I not let my values (religious ones) affect policy decision if I were a lawmaker? Remember, I believe those aborted children are my constituents too.
Furthermore, please, we all know what I mean when I say murder. My dad didn't email and tell me that my sister's rapist had been charged with attempted homicide, he said attempted murder. Should I have asked him whether he got caught trying to kill a fly? This isn't a trial. You all knew what I meant.
AKAK, you say the bumper sticker should read "Abortion should be murder." I'm fine with the way it is because much like the word marriage I don't let government define words for me.
BKB, you commented that in my mind I would be saying "Murder is Murder". I disagree here too. Do you only understand when I say "A Sycamore is a type of tree." or would it suffice that I say "A Sycamore is a tree"?
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t_BuckeyeScott;1131394; said:
My comment to AKAK was a tongue in cheek comment on bumper stickers and didn't mean to address you at all. Likewise, though not quoted here, my "indecision" was/is regarding the weighing of one right v. another.
A life is a life is a life sounds all nice and fuzzy... but... some times people are forced to choose one life over another. To illustrate.. it's you or the bad guy who broke in to your house and just raped your wife... what's it gonna be? A life is a life is a life, or are you shooting the fucker before he shoots you? Obviously a life isn't a life isn't a life. True, there's a big difference between an unborn child and a rapist/murder. No question. And, I think I made it clear that if I thought Abortion was murder, I'd probably have little choice but to be "militant" about it (Not saying you are)... so... I really don't have a problem at all with your position. It's a fine position....
It's just not my position... and, while you should want to implement your position on me, I will have to resist that. Not because you're wrong.. not because I'm right... just because it's not your problem what I think.
What do you propose, should abortion become banned, we do with the hundreds of thousands of unwanted children that will necessarily be born as a result? What are the larger consequences of kids (say a 15 year old) being parents? Are you prepared to deal with those expenses, such as an increase in the number of state run orphanages? Or, is it "Make it illegal" and people will stop being stupid and there wont be any issue? I'm not trying to sound like a dick... I'm just wondering what you're willing to pay for. And truly... most Anti-Abortion folks I meet have no answer to these questions.... I hope you do.
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BuckeyeRyn
Calling all friends & people I met on the way down
hmmm.. if it can't happen to your body you really shouldn't expect your opinion to matter....
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It's my child too, though, you know.... I agree with your point, but... I also now, as a father, realize much more intimately that I have rights in the transaction as well... though, I would say those rights, whatever they are are not superior to yours.BuckeyeRyn;1131409; said:
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t_BuckeyeScott
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I hope I didn't offend you when I said "unlike BKB". If I did, please accept my apologies as I was only using you to show contrast. Likewise I missed the tongue and cheek reference as it has been a long week so I apologize there too.
All I was saying there was my mind was made up. Notice I only said "a life is a life is life is a life" not "a killing is a murder is a killing is a murder." I believe we've been through the what we consider the differences before. That is not what I'm debating.
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BuckeyeRyn
Calling all friends & people I met on the way down
I will tell you, I have a HUGE problem with someone, anyone, especially some jerk off sitting up on Capital Hill telling me what I can and can't do with my body...
HUGE PROBLEM!!!!
HUGE PROBLEM!!!!
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t_BuckeyeScott
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I have HUGE problem with murder, especially as compared with someone's choice (which I believe in over 99% has already been made).
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No worries.....t_BuckeyeScott;1131413; said:
Fair enough... what about the questions I left at the end? I mean, there are serious consequences to your desired solution, so do you have any ideas on how to deal with them? I'll assume abstinence education is among those ideas, but I think it's fair for you to recognize that that education won't "Take" just as soon as someone utters the words.... Let's say it takes a whole generation or two before abstinence catches on... what do we do with all the un-wanteds?
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AS well you should... but, you must concede that not everyone agrees that it is murder, no?t_BuckeyeScott;1131417; said:
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t_BuckeyeScott
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That was really weird. Almost buggy (sorry I'm a software guy too). When I began typing my response you hadn't edited yet. When I posted my response it showed your edit in my post. When I scrolled up, your post still showed the unedited version. So imagine my confusion. When I refreshed both of our posts showed your edit. I'll answer your other points in a minute.
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