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Abortion debate (Split from Obama Thread)

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Brewtus;1131051; said:
But majority rule doesn't/shouldn't apply when it would interfere with, and limit the rights of others. I would venture to say that the majority of Americans believe in the sanctity of the 10 Commandments, but only a few of the Commandments are instituted as laws in this country because most would limit the individual rights and freedoms of others.
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Interesting.

Which ones are illegal again?

And of those... why are they really illegal?

I mean what is the real moral difference between Murder and not resting on the Sabbath? Is it just levels of naughtiness?
 
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Brewtus;1131051; said:
But majority rule doesn't/shouldn't apply when it would interfere with, and limit the rights of others. I would venture to say that the majority of Americans believe in the sanctity of the 10 Commandments, but only a few of the Commandments are instituted as laws in this country because most would limit the individual rights and freedoms of others.
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Did you like the Assault Weapons ban? How about the smoking ban in Ohio? Or hell how about the age limit to purchase alcohol??

A republic or a democracy can crush or limit someone's rights just as easily as any other form of government.

What you state is utopia or something - that's NOT reality no matter how good it looks on a message board.
 
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Bucky Katt;1131045; said:
However, being elected does not mean the majority of the voters agree with the electee on all issues, and acting on your own behalf under the presumption that the voters unequivocally agree with you on all topics is where I get concerned. It's really easy on the hot-button issues, but not so clear on issues that don't get the media attention.

If people vote for John McCain as president due to his long service in the military and congress, and hold the expectation that he will be the best of the candidates in dealing with issues such as war management and national security, that isn't necessarily indicative of s majority approval for his personal feelings regarding other matters.
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I worry about all of our politicians, no matter if I agree with them on things or not. Unless I personally know him or her (and I know NONE at the moment), they are all a potential issue when it comes to rights.

That said, look at how our politicians operate. If they get elected, they run with it just as I said.
 
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t_BuckeyeScott;1131073; said:
Um...
Murder

verb1. kill intentionally and with premeditation


???
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Well, murder is going to be defined differently in each state, legally, but I believe they all include "a human" (or similar) as the victim. In fact, if you think you are killing an alien, and kill a human, you should be able to get off as there is no mens rea.

So, back to the whole what is a zygote debate. . . Or, IIRC, you have levels: fetus (can't survive on its own), unborn child (can), full human. The laws differ in different jurisdictions (including outside the U.S.A., that is. . .)

Anyway, back to the discussion with AK that you are having, which I should just let you guys work through, I assume he is referencing the state of mind for murder v. abortion. . .
 
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kinch;1131092; said:
Well, murder is going to be defined differently in each state, legally, but I believe they all include "a human" (or similar) as the victim. In fact, if you think you are killing an alien, and kill a human, you should be able to get off as there is no mens rea.

So, back to the whole what is a zygote debate. . . Or, IIRC, you have levels: fetus (can't survive on its own), unborn child (can), full human. The laws differ in different jurisdictions (including outside the U.S.A., that is. . .)
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Ya beat me to it...
 
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No, not really.

I'm merely being technical.

Murder by definition is illegal.

Abortion is not--- or at least in the cases in which it most practiced.

"Abortion is murder".... is also using "murder" as a noun, btw.

At any rate, those "Abortion is Murder" bumper stickers make me want to get out a sharpie and put in a "should be."
 
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Brewtus;1131051; said:
But majority rule doesn't/shouldn't apply when it would interfere with, and limit the rights of others. I would venture to say that the majority of Americans believe in the sanctity of the 10 Commandments, but only a few of the Commandments are instituted as laws in this country because most would limit the individual rights and freedoms of others.
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Not sure I can agree here, at least half of them are laws, murder, steal, adultery, commit perjury, and trespass (neighbor's stuff), that's more than "a few" Bearing in mind the the Bible has at least two purposes here (without arguing the religious aspect) - that being worship of G-d as well as governing human behavior. US Government, of course, is not (or at least shouldn't be) concerned with how one addresses their G-d. SO really, 100% of those laws in the 10 Commandments which do not discuss how to worship G-d are laws in this country.

I do agree with you to the extent that a majority decision to infringe on the rights of another is suspect, so far as I'm concerned. But, it comes down to the contours of the right at issue. Is a woman's right to choose what becomes of her body superior to a fetus' "right" to develop? Is that even a fair question? Can a fetus fill the definition of "life of another" in a statute? If it does, then isn't killing any living thing also murder? And so on...

I don't have the answers, of course, but it seems to me to be an individual decision we ALL have. For me, I'm pro choice not because I have answered these questions in favor of the "pro choice side" but precisely because I don't have the answers at all. How can I possibly say YOU CAN'T DO THAT when I don't know if you can or not? Hell, even "straight up adult on adult killings" aren't always punishable in court.... that is to say, we as a society understand a mitigation of circumstances/ right balancing acts...

Anyway... Because I feel it is up to each individual to decide if a fetus has rights... can be "killed" (in the murder sense)....... and whether that interest is outweighed by a mother's rights (fathers?) it is impossible for me to be anything but pro choice. That is to say, Abortion may not be a reasonable possibility in MY view of things, I do not feel comfortable imposing my judgment on the issue on YOU.

I suppose if I did see abortion as murder, I would be pretty militant Anti Abortion - they seem to go hand in hand with each other. I suppose this would be easy enough to observe if there was a contingent of folks who supported the legalization of child molestation... (Yes, I know about NAMBLA) I would speak them down with regularity.. I'd even be willing to say things WAY over the top just to make my point, I think. I might even mean those things.

I don't know... maybe I'm wrong... just seems to me the anti-abortion folks are destined to win this battle. They have the passion for the issue, whereas the pro-choicers are really just offering an intellectual exercise. If that makes sense.
 
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AKAKBUCK;1131115; said:
No, not really.

I'm merely being technical.

Murder by definition is illegal.

Abortion is not--- or at least in the cases in which it most practiced.

"Abortion is murder".... is also using "murder" as a noun, btw.

At any rate, those "Abortion is Murder" bumper stickers make me want to get out a sharpie and put in a "should be."
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If abortion were murder, then wouldn't the bumper sticker just say "Murder is Murder?"
 
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MaxBuck;1131121; said:
OK. So if I squash a roach intentionally and with premeditation, that would be murder according to the dictionary you are using here.

I think another, more-precise definition is needed for "murder."
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Correct. Which is why, as Kinch points out, every criminal statute makes some reference to the wilful taking of a "human" life.. or "the life of another" or some such language.
 
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