2018 tOSU Defense Discussion

[Jaxbuck]

In 2014, the last game in September was a poorly played cluster fuck against Cincinnati that featured the defense giving up several very long plays. That year it got fixed. This year... well, the problem is as bad as I’ve ever seen it. We know from past experience that a fix is possible... we’ll see.

As for how bad the problem is: In the past 3 games, they’ve given up a run and a pass of 93 yards. In 128 years, the OSU offense has faced a butt load of poorly coached defenses with gap integrity issues, and in all that time, they have zero runs and zero passes of that length. Zero. And the defense has allowed one of each in the past 3 games. If the same coaching staff that allowed this level of cluster-fuquery to fester can somehow realize a fix, then maybe this team has a shot. It’s happened before, sort of, so... maybe?

Positive side of me: I haven't seen Minny play so take them away and 3 of the next 4 opponents play a version of offense very similar to what they have just defended against Tulane and Penn State. One would think that would provide an opportunity for improvement if it were ever going to happen.

Less positive side of me: Urban Meyer said all summer that the other safety spot was his biggest concern. Well, he wasn't lying (see what I did there?) and if it didn't get unfucked all spring, summer, fall camp and almost halfway into the season, I'm a little skeptical it's going to get unfucked in 2018.

These 93 yard plays aren't on the LB's. It's 100% on the safeties. Sure a LB can be out of position to open the door for a big play but it's the safety's job to limit it to a 20-30 yard gash instead of allow another longest play in school history type TD.

 

[ShowMeBuck]

To be fair, the best player on either roster wasn’t on the field.

And also to be fair, Davis is terrible and we need more instinctive, actual LBs and less “athletes”

 

[Jaxbuck]

Besides the 93 yard pass we gave up (tired of saying that) I will take that defensive effort. The objective was to take away Miles first and foremost which they did.

Totally agree

The biggest issue I had was Trace was tucking and running so much... Why we don't play more zone is beyond me

I wonder if the coaches feel like they can effectively teach and practice zone well enough with this particular group? Whole ass one thing instead of half assing two things concept.

1. Aggressive man coverage on 3rd down- give up 5 if its 3rd and 8.
2. Pryor at safety-the angles
3. LBs up at the LOS- hard to read/react


The aggressiveness is killing us and we just continue to plug along with it.. This defense is FAST and if we played more zone (especially on 3rd and long) it would help us identify the run better as well as prevent our DBs from being turned around.

We saw what happens when you play a lot of zone behind a strong pass rush in 2013. They just hit quick passes to guys who are wide open because they have a 5 yard cushion. I am 100% fine with the philosophy of the defense with the understanding that there is always a trade off. They are built to give up yards and some big plays in return for lots of TFL's, turnovers and general disruption. Good - bad = net win for defense so to speak.

The problem is the equation is out of whack because the poor safety play is multiplying the opponents payoff for the times they are naturally going to gash an aggressive man to man defense.

Seriously how many times can teams just lob passes up and our DBs don't turn or get their hands up? That's what Lattimore did so well and we lack that.

Iirc, the technique they are taught is to play the man, meaning hand up when his go up and strip through his hands as he comes down. Some guys are better than others and comfortable enough to turn around when they anticipate the receiver playing the ball but I think the bottom line is the "just good enough" level is where they all are right now and as a result are more strict to their coaching.

Overall though I'm so proud of what our defense did yesterday.. the offense kept putting them in bad spots over and over yet they wouldn't crack. They gave up yards but they buckled down when they had to.

Offense left them out to dry for all but 8 minutes of that game.

Proud of the effort yesterday but still concerning considering what lies ahead

Agreed. I think we definitely saw improvement and against the best offense, on paper, left on the schedule. I am cautiously optimistic that they can begin to whittle down the big plays allowed from here on out but granted, I am just thinking about winning The Game and the B1G. Not even contemplating playoffs at this point.

 

[Systems_id]

To be fair, the best player on either roster wasn’t on the field.

And also to be fair, Davis is terrible and we need more instinctive, actual LBs and less “athletes”

Nah Davis is just terrible. Most of the LBs we have right now were recruited by Fickell and we should know by now Fick knew how to both evaluate and coach up LBs. Proof was in the pudding last year when, after only losing a single starter, the LBs looked like they’d never even played the position before. Safety play is still a concern but with SO much youth back there, I’m a little less concern plus it’s been improving every week.

 

[zincfinger]

In 2014, the last game in September was a poorly played cluster fuck against Cincinnati that featured the defense giving up several very long plays. That year it got fixed. This year... well, the problem is as bad as I’ve ever seen it. We know from past experience that a fix is possible... we’ll see.

As for how bad the problem is: In the past 3 games, they’ve given up a run and a pass of 93 yards. In 128 years, the OSU offense has faced a butt load of poorly coached defenses with gap integrity issues, and in all that time, they have zero runs and zero passes of that length. Zero. And the defense has allowed one of each in the past 3 games. If the same coaching staff that allowed this level of cluster-fuquery to fester can somehow realize a fix, then maybe this team has a shot. It’s happened before, sort of, so... maybe?

The 93 yard touchdowns surrendered - longest running and passing places an OSU defense has ever given up - is an interesting stat, but not as significant as some probably consider it to be, in my opinion. Because there's not that much difference between a 60 yard touchdown and a 93 yard touchdown. Either way, the ball carrier got past the entire defense, and probably could have scored a 200 yard touchdown if the field were that long. The reason 93 yard touchdowns are far less common is because offenses run far fewer plays from inside their own 8 yard line than they do from inside their own 41. Either way, it's a complete defensive breakdown, of course, and we've seen those before - as you say, several times in early 2014. The fact that a couple of the breakdowns this year came when the opponent was pinned deep in their territory doesn't make it much more damning of the defense's level of play, to me.

 

[DaddyBigBucks]

The 93 yard touchdowns surrendered - longest running and passing places an OSU defense has ever given up - is an interesting stat, but not as significant as some probably consider it to be, in my opinion. Because there's not that much difference between a 60 yard touchdown and a 93 yard touchdown. Either way, the ball carrier got past the entire defense, and probably could have scored a 200 yard touchdown if the field were that long. The reason 93 yard touchdowns are far less common is because offenses run far fewer plays from inside their own 8 yard line than they do from inside their own 41. Either way, it's a complete defensive breakdown, of course, and we've seen those before - as you say, several times in early 2014. The fact that a couple of the breakdowns this year came when the opponent was pinned deep in their territory doesn't make it much more damning of the defense's level of play, to me.

Totally agree that just awful luck is a huge part of this, but we’re clearly agreed that these things don’t happen unless there is a mistake in the front 7, if it’s a running play, and a complete missed assignment on the backend regardless the type of play.

 

[Ryan36_1]

I think Jax is spot on in his last two posts. We run an aggressive scheme. It makes us susceptible to chunk plays, but also allows us to force a large number of negative plays. The philosophy is that we can get enough negative plays to prevent long methodical drives against us. The safety play is causing these chunk plays to turn into long TDs. If that changes, I think we have a great, but not elite, D.

We should be able to tell how this issue is progressing as the season goes on. Pretty much every team we play has an athlete or two that can make us pay for poor angles. I don't see this as something that goes away and then resurfaces come postseason. Either we struggle all year or at some point we flip a switch.

 

[zincfinger]

Totally agree that just awful luck is a huge part of this, but we’re clearly agreed that these things don’t happen unless there is a mistake in the front 7, if it’s a running play, and a complete missed assignment on the backend regardless the type of play.

Yes we are. And, I think, also in agreement that the issue isn't whether the 60+ yard plays allowed are 60+33 or 60+1, which doesn't matter much, but whether those 60+ yard plays are happening more often than they have in other, "sound defense", years (or almost any other year, for that matter). While I haven't seen that comparison laid out (say, number of 40, or 50, or 60+ yard plays allowed per game, which I would normally expect to be a pretty small fractional number, for different years), it certainly seems like they are happening more frequently this year.

 

[Woody1968]

Take away the 93 yard pass and Mc Sorely had 193 yards passing. That is better than I would like against our D, but not really earth shattering. Other than that play, he didn't do much through the air that was overly impressive, and their running back was held in check for the most part. I do see some improvement from the beginning of the season.

 

[OregonBuckeye]

Take awyy the 93 yard pass and Mc Sorely had 193 yards passing. That is better than I would like against our D, but not really earth shattering. Other than that play, he didn't do much through the air that was overly impressive, and their running back was held in check for the most part. I do see some improvement from the beginning of the season.

I'd understand the "take that play away" mentality if they were so rare. But when you give up huge plays game after game, that's a trend that can no longer be disregarded. This type of D won't work in the playoff against an equally talented team

 

[Woody1968]

I'd understand the "take that play away" mentality if they were so rare. But when you give up huge plays game after game, that's a trend that can no longer be disregarded. This type of D won't work in the playoff against an equally talented team

Agreed, BUT they are getting to be fewer and further between. PSU's offense was putting up decent numbers coming in, so the fact that they had one big play like that, concerns me less than a bunch of plays and points given up to Oregon State.

 

[OregonBuckeye]

Agreed, BUT they are getting to be fewer and further between. PSU's offense was putting up decent numbers coming in, so the fact that they had one big play like that, concerns me less than a bunch of plays and points given up to Oregon State.

Are they? PSU repeatedly gashed us for chunk plays of 10-20 yards, even outside of the 90 yard TD and 50 yard run.

There is time left to improve. But while we hope this ends like 2014, it could just as easily end like 2013. I know that's a cynical take. I'm stoked about the win. But facing a team like Bama without major improvements could turn into a rout.

 

[Woody1968]

Are they? PSU repeatedly gashed us for chunk plays of 10-20 yards, even outside of the 90 yard TD and 50 yard run.

There is time left to improve. But while we hope this ends like 2014, it could just as easily end like 2013. I know that's a cynical take. I'm stoked about the win. But facing a team like Bama without major improvements could turn into a rout.

McSorely repeatedly rushed for chunks, but his completion pct was only 50%, and their RB only averaged 2.7 YPC with a long run of 12 yards. Yes, we need to deal with dual threat QB's a lot better, but generally we did a good job of taking away the RB.

 

[Systems_id]

Are they? PSU repeatedly gashed us for chunk plays of 10-20 yards, even outside of the 90 yard TD and 50 yard run.

There is time left to improve. But while we hope this ends like 2014, it could just as easily end like 2013. I know that's a cynical take. I'm stoked about the win. But facing a team like Bama without major improvements could turn into a rout.

True but I think it's still a little too early to tell. 2014 defense looked worse than this up until the B1G Championship. They gave up nearly 600 yards and 37 points to a worse Michigan State offense, and that was with the OSU offense basically scoring at will. Let a 5-7 Michigan team roll up nearly 400 yards and 28 points. The big plays are still concerning but this defense is still ahead of 2014 by a pretty decent margin imo. No way does 2014 make the stops necessary to beat TCU nor Penn State.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Here is something to consider. When I went in search of stats to show how the defense was giving up chunk plays I found this:

Opponents yards per play (pretty self explanatory). The number on the far left is national rank, the number on the far right is what the rank was last year. First column to the right is this years number.



Then I looked at Points per play (which is a measure of explosiveness)



Almost dead on the money to where they were last year and good for 23rd in the country.

Bend but don't break (too much) defense at it's finest

They are also 109th in the country in penalties per game at 8.2

and yet they are 5-0

Urban isn't just blowing smoke when he says this team has a lot of upside. In a lot of ways, they have played like shit.