2015-16 Ohio State Quarterback Discussion

[Saw31]

This is such a strange conversation. I can't ever remember a QB controversy where there may be no wrong answer as to who plays. Wow.

Reading some other forums, there are some very envious fans around the country...

Fuck it. Put them both in shotgun, let the center decide who he wants to snap it to on each play.

 

[zincfinger]

The offense has run much more efficiently with a functional WR corps. Even Barrett struggled until that group stopped dropping passes and got their [Mark May] together. There's no telling what a healthy Miller would have done with this year's team.

You raise an interesting question, one which jwinslow addressed as well. And it's one we'll likely never know the answer to. How much of the apparently improved productivity of the receiving corp this year is due to improvement of the receivers, and how much, if any is due to more consistent and accurate ball distribution from the quarterback? The expectation was that Miller was going to distribute the ball more this year and have his best passing performance with the benefit of a more seasoned arsenal of young, surrounding talent. Would that have come to fruition, or is Barrett simply better in that regard?

 

[zincfinger]

Running yards are always nice, but they simply are not what's needed from the QB position.

I disagree. The ability of the quarterback to run the football effectively is a critical component of this offense. The only caveat I would place on emphasizing the importance of Miller's running ability in this discussion is that Barrett is arguably nearly as good, even though he does it very differently.

 

[Poe McKnoe]

I disagree. The ability of the quarterback to run the football effectively is a critical component of this offense. The only caveat I would place on emphasizing the importance of Miller's running ability in this discussion is that Barrett is arguably nearly as good, even though he does it very differently.

Are you suggesting that Barrett has a Tebow-esque effectiveness to his rushing?

There, I said it.

 

[jwinslow]

I wouldn't say it's bad, but it highlights something. It's also a misnomer to count stats for the QB position like that. Running yards are always nice, but they simply are not what's needed from the QB position. There's a stable of running backs (last year and this) that will get the yards on the ground.

qb runs aren't simply nice. They are a central tenant of this offense and a major factor in JT's successes and failures this year.

Braxton did not need an extra 150 yds through the air. He needed a bit more efficiency, especially on third down, and he needed a lot more help from the receivers who had their lunch money taken on almost every challenged catch.

Ignoring rushing yards when evaluating a dual threat qb is as reckless as just looking at overall statistics. I brought them up because that strongly refutes the bad game verbiage about that performance.

Last year, almost every press conference post-game featured Urban talking about how we needed to be more balanced. Why do you think that was? I ignored it most of the year b/c Hyde and Brax were monsters and scarlet-tinted glasses.. but it eventually caught up with us and Urban proved prophetic.
6/15 133yds 2 TD 1 Int
8/21 101yds 1 TD
16/24 234yds 2 TD 2 Int

I don't really like having this discussion b/c it sounds like placing blame on Brax when the issues in those 3 games was definitively the defense and he played with all the heart in the world. Nonetheless, it's a discussion worth having.
Against the likes of sanctioned PSU, Iowa, Purdue, etc. a gifted running QB that doesn't hold anything back will be more than sufficient.
Against elite teams, you need a QB that can get it to his surrounding cast. I think you put too much blame for that on the receivers themselves - I also think some of us have put too much blame on Herman when he probably had a better idea of Brax can/cannot do than any of us. Vannett, Heuerman, Smith, Spencer did not have revelations over the Summer. Thomas for Philly is basically a wash. Swapping Hyde for Eze+Samuel, Wilson for Wilson 2.0+Marshall... there is some talent lost and some talent gained. Overall gain, but not nearly as much as you try to make out. The core group is not significantly different.
And it showed on the field.

of course you need balance. That means better play from the qb position. It means much better play from the h back position to properly constrain the defense and set up the pass. It means catching short and intermediate passes to move the chains (something Devin, Evan and dontre have all struggled with and which Devin did a great job with on Saturday ). It means having players who can go out and make big plays in traffic or break a shortly ain for six (something they were not good at doing last year )
Again, consider what MSU did to us. What they did to Nebraska's 2-headed monster of Armstrong+Abdullah. What they almost did to Mariotta (who actually is the most electric QB in the country for my money) - until he beat them with his arm 17/28 318yds 3TD.
Do those numbers look a little familiar to 16/26 300yds 3TD?

I love Braxton, but I'm not going to lie to myself and pretend he would've thrown for 300 yards on Saturday. Would he have got 350+ yds total offense? Probably... but MSU would've been able to stack the box and I don't think we have the lead going into half time or able to overcome all that bad stuff (penalties, missed FG, fumbles, dropped int, etc.)

Of course he would not have thrown for 300, but that is not a metric of success. How well he moved the chains, did the little things and took advantage of big play opportunities would be a much better evaluation of his success. I I think Braxton would have run for 150 on Sparty. Against that much worse spartan secondary, I like his chances of hitting 175-200 yds through the air.

I don't think either performance would outclass the other qb if he hit that stat lin3.

 

[kujirakira]

qb runs aren't simply nice. They are a central tenant of this offense and a major factor in JT's successes and failures this year.

Braxton did not need an extra 150 yds through the air. He needed a bit more efficiency, especially on third down, and he needed a lot more help from the receivers who had their lunch money taken on almost every challenged catch.
Ignoring rushing yards when evaluating a dual threat qb is as reckless as just looking at overall statistics. I brought them up because that strongly refutes the bad game verbiage about that performance.

Insofar as making good decision with Read-Option, yes. Insofar as scrambling after 1 or 2 reads... not at all. There's already been plenty of discussion about Brax' "reads" in read option, and we both know the majority of his yards on the ground do not come from designed runs that are a part of the offense. They came from his athleticism "making something out of nothing".
Nor did I ever suggest ignoring them. I quite plainly said that they aren't "as valuable". If this team wants to compete at the highest levels, the QB has to make throws and pose a significant threat in the passing phase.
This is all stuff that Urban himself is pushing when he continually preaches balance and lamented almost every game last year about how the team needs to be more balanced.

of course you need balance. That means better play from the qb position. It means much better play from the h back position to properly constrain the defense and set up the pass. It means catching short and intermediate passes to move the chains (something Devin, Evan and dontre have all struggled with and which Devin did a great job with on Saturday ). It means having players who can go out and make big plays in traffic or break a shortly ain for six (something they were not good at doing last year )

The fact is that it's still fundamentally the same corps. Nor are they greatly improved at "breaking" one... up til Illinois people will still clamoring for one of the play makers to break one - and even then it was Samuel and Marshall on designed runs. Thomas, the possession receiver, is the only one to break a short or intermediate pass for big gains.
People have been criticizing Wilson all year (often passive-aggressively) implying he's practically a bust b/c he's not Ted Ginn and doesn't take stuff to the house.

Of course he would not have thrown for 300, but that is not a metric of success. How well he moved the chains, did the little things and took advantage of big play opportunities would be a much better evaluation of his success. I I think Braxton would have run for 150 on Sparty. Against that much worse spartan secondary, I like his chances of hitting 175-200 yds through the air.

I don't think either performance would outclass the other qb if he hit that stat lin3.

For the QB position, throwing yardage most certainly is a crucial metric. Again, we were 1d with Brax and MSU was able to shut us down last year. They were able to shut down Oregon and Nebraska's run games as well. Oregon came back b/c they threw the ball. Nebraska couldn't find success throwing and lost. We lose again with a QB who can't open up the run with the pass like Barrett did - starting in the very first series - on Saturday.
Balance, 2014 has it. 2013 didn't. Braxton isn't going to revamp his instincts in 18+ months of not playing.

 

[jlb1705]

The fact is that it's still fundamentally the same corps. Nor are they greatly improved at "breaking" one... up til Illinois people will still clamoring for one of the play makers to break one - and even then it was Samuel and Marshall on designed runs. Thomas, the possession receiver, is the only one to break a short or intermediate pass for big gains.
People have been criticizing Wilson all year (often passive-aggressively) implying he's practically a bust b/c he's not Ted Ginn and doesn't take stuff to the house.

Coach Meyer's comments fly in the face of this. It may be mostly the same names, but according to him (and I happen to agree), the competence level of that unit is much different from last year.

Everybody is clamoring for somebody to "break one" because that's the sexy thing, but the fact of the matter is that big plays was about all the wide receiver group could be counted on to produce the last couple years - Devin Smith being chiefly responsible for that production. Among returning players, it's been the short-to-intermediate stuff that's been lacking.

I don't understand how people can think this receiving corps isn't fundamentally different from a year ago when Michael Thomas - the leading receiver - is an embodiment of that transformation. He's breaking big plays from short routes and is the go-to pass catcher - but last season he was redshirting as a sophomore because he wasn't good enough. He clearly isn't the same player that he was a year ago, and neither is the wide receiver group as a unit.

 

[pnuts34]

Coach Meyer's comments fly in the face of this. It may be mostly the same names, but according to him (and I happen to agree), the competence level of that unit is much different from last year.

Everybody is clamoring for somebody to "break one" because that's the sexy thing, but the fact of the matter is that big plays was about all the wide receiver group could be counted on to produce the last couple years - Devin Smith being chiefly responsible for that production. Among returning players, it's been the short-to-intermediate stuff that's been lacking.

I don't understand how people can think this receiving corps isn't fundamentally different from a year ago when Michael Thomas - the leading receiver - is an embodiment of that transformation. He's breaking big plays from short routes and is the go-to pass catcher - but last season he was redshirting as a sophomore because he wasn't good enough. He clearly isn't the same player that he was a year ago, and neither is the wide receiver group as a unit.

Idk if Thomas wasn't good enough, or the staff didn't believe in him. And they have admitted redshirting several players last year that they wish they would've played(Mike Mitchell being another guy as well as Vonn Bell). That doesn't mean he wasn't doing that in practices last year. Mike called our the WRs last year,and for good reason, he knew he could play every bit as good as Devin and Philly but wasn't given the opportunity. I think the WR corp hasn't changed all that much from last year to this year but having a QB that can accurately place the balk where the WR will be has certainly helped. Braxton keyed on WRs way too much last year, and if Philly wasn't open he would run(a little exaggerated but you get my point), progressions weren't exactly went through completely and QB play got worse as the season went on which is the opposite of this year. In 15gms 8 different players had 10 or more receptions in 2013 and this year at 9 games we have the same number and if Corey Smith catches one more ball we'd have 9 players, showing the ball is being spread very efficiently to a number of different players. And our leading receiver doesn't have close to 20 more catches than the next one. Saying that our WRs are finally stepping up is taking a lot of credit away from JT and the outstanding season he's having at the QB position, as he's about to win the same awards Braxton has taken home in conference the past few years, and break his records, along with our last Heisman winners as well.

 

[RugbyBuck]

I'll wait until the end of the year to reach a definitive conclusion but I'm leaning toward the belief that JT is simply the better QB of the two of them in Urban's system. There's no shame in that and it certainly isn't derogatory toward Braxton any more than the indisputable statement that he's the better athlete is derogatory to JT. Steve19 was my best man and is a better man and I don't have any problem admitting that. :)

 

[HorseshoeFetish]

This should solve all QB problems.....



I hate to admit it but I found this in a BR article. Ben Axelrod talks about Jalin being the future type of football.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...m=newsletter&utm_campaign=ohio-state-football

 

[JXC]

I think it's a mistake to point to who is better, and more point to who is more likely to help us win. Momentum is huge in winning...if this season finishes strong, it hard to disrupt the momentum it will have created. Braxton can be used in wildcat and other ways...they are already in the playbook, but the offense in my opinion shouldn't be changed, and the offense feeds off of JTs strengths. But this assumes both are 100% healthy and that JT handles himself the right way between now and the fall (which he has given us no reason to think he won't).

 

[maximumblitz]

This should solve all QB problems.....

yes, if you are going to have 3 QB's, it is good for one to be left handed, for the rollouts to the left.

 

[Bill Lucas]

Idk if Thomas wasn't good enough, or the staff didn't believe in him. And they have admitted redshirting several players last year that they wish they would've played(Mike Mitchell being another guy as well as Vonn Bell). That doesn't mean he wasn't doing that in practices last year. Mike called our the WRs last year,and for good reason, he knew he could play every bit as good as Devin and Philly but wasn't given the opportunity. I think the WR corp hasn't changed all that much from last year to this year but having a QB that can accurately place the balk where the WR will be has certainly helped. Braxton keyed on WRs way too much last year, and if Philly wasn't open he would run(a little exaggerated but you get my point), progressions weren't exactly went through completely and QB play got worse as the season went on which is the opposite of this year. In 15gms 8 different players had 10 or more receptions in 2013 and this year at 9 games we have the same number and if Corey Smith catches one more ball we'd have 9 players, showing the ball is being spread very efficiently to a number of different players. And our leading receiver doesn't have close to 20 more catches than the next one. Saying that our WRs are finally stepping up is taking a lot of credit away from JT and the outstanding season he's having at the QB position, as he's about to win the same awards Braxton has taken home in conference the past few years, and break his records, along with our last Heisman winners as well.

Vonn Bell did not redshirt last year.

 

[pnuts34]

Vonn Bell did not redshirt last year.

He didn't but he didn't play as much as the coaches wanted, and Urban stated that around the Orange Bowl.

 

[kujirakira]

Coach Meyer's comments fly in the face of this. It may be mostly the same names, but according to him (and I happen to agree), the competence level of that unit is much different from last year.

Everybody is clamoring for somebody to "break one" because that's the sexy thing, but the fact of the matter is that big plays was about all the wide receiver group could be counted on to produce the last couple years - Devin Smith being chiefly responsible for that production. Among returning players, it's been the short-to-intermediate stuff that's been lacking.

I don't understand how people can think this receiving corps isn't fundamentally different from a year ago when Michael Thomas - the leading receiver - is an embodiment of that transformation. He's breaking big plays from short routes and is the go-to pass catcher - but last season he was redshirting as a sophomore because he wasn't good enough. He clearly isn't the same player that he was a year ago, and neither is the wide receiver group as a unit.

Whether it's sexy or not -- it was his point. He claimed this year's corps is better at breaking ones and less drops. I'm not buying either of those for a second. They aren't breaking huge plays, and drops continue to be a chronic issue in the receiving corps.
The only player with major improvement is Wilson (who JT won't even have until bowl season at the earliest); the only major new additions are Thomas and Marshall. Throw in losing Philly, and the difference isn't anywhere near what people are trying to make it.
The difference in our passing game comes just as much from greatly improved performance at the QB position - not just the skill players.
Anyone who thinks Braxton throws like this is lying to themselves. Anyone who thinks yards by a scrambling QB are equally valuable to passing yards, is clueless. You can't keep elite defenses honest w/o passing. We should know this by now after 2013...