2010 tOSU Running Backs discussion

[Meyer]

I don't think this is necessarily the same. It isn't like we have Adrian Peterson sitting on the bench, or some other mutant like Terrelle Pryor.

Herron is a better true running back. Saine is a better everything else back. He has speed, he has great hands, he blocks well, and he has to be used somehow.

If I had the answers, I'd be on the staff. But I feel your pain.

But we do have Hall and Berry on the bench and it's not crazy to think that they could add something to our running game. Saine, right now, is not doing a great job. Herron is solid but unspectacular. Hall and Berry have a chance to bring that spectacular. No one's lobbying for the job to be handed to either of them, but a couple carries a game couldn't hurt. Give a couple of Saine's carries to them until he starts running like he's shown he can.

Saine could be the 3rd down back and come in and catch passes and block.

 

[matttank]

I don't think this is necessarily the same. It isn't like we have Adrian Peterson sitting on the bench, or some other mutant like Terrelle Pryor.

Herron is a better true running back. Saine is a better everything else back. He has speed, he has great hands, he blocks well, and he has to be used somehow.

If I had the answers, I'd be on the staff. But I feel your pain.

People keep saying this, but I don't believe it to be true. I have seen him miss/get beat on blocking assignments in every game except Marshall (and I didn't really watch that game all that closely). And it isn't like he is asked to pass protect all that often because they like to utilize him as a receiver. I think Herron is the superior blocking back in pass pro, as he is less afraid of contact and usually submarines oncoming rushers (Saine likes to block more standing).

Tress is loyal to Seniors (or experienced players to be more precise), but he is overly loyal to SRs/upperclassmen who have contributed in the past and will play them until it costs him a game even if they are under-performing. To be sure, Saine was the best back on the team late last year and was obviously a huge key to us winning a Rose Bowl (and we all will always love him for that). That play has not continued this season however, and we have been winning in spite of most of his performances as a RB.

I have said in another thread that I wouldn't mind them putting him at WR full time since we still have no established #3, and he does have fantastic hand to go with a pretty good feel for getting open. This would be well outside of Tressel's MO however, so it probably won't happen.

I would give Boom a majority of the carries because of his running style and dependability. I see no reason why Berry/Hall can't get a few cracks with the first team unless they are constantly messing up plays/forgetting assignments in practice (I haven't heard of this being a problem though). Unless Saine decides he wants to start running with some authority again (or gets healthy enough to if that really is the problem), then having him tote the rock should not be part of the gameplan IMHO. I know people like to use the "trust the coaches" mantra, but they are human and not infallible.

 

[daddyphatsacs]

so in 2008 pryor should've just been the starter until boeckman "got it together"?

i mean, if a starter is underperforming, then they shouldn't be the starter. hall has been consistently good in real games during 1st string time, not just in mop up duty, and at this point saine is pretty clearly not one of the two best RBs on the team.

For your first question, the answer is no. That is if we would have had any kind of line that year. Do some research man, the line blew that year. It's no coincidence that Tressel put in a raw running quarterback that year. It wasn't because TP had a grasp on the offense, it was because he was a brilliant athlete that also played quarterback.........one that could run really fast away from opposing defenders.

Okay, back to this year. You made my point for me. I agree that Saine has not played that well as of late, it seems like he's hurt. As for Herron, he's been very effective. I said in my previous statement that Hall deserves more work. From everything that I've read and heard on Berry, the reason that he has not seen more time in the backfield during important times is pass blocking. If he gets that together, he'll be on the field.

People act like being a college running back is simple lining up in the backfield and taking handoffs. It's not all that simple, especially when you have a heisman caliber quarterback that is the focal point of the offense. Teams have a tendency to blitz TP when he's passing........so normally you need a RB to stick around and block. If that particular RB is not good at blocking........well, you have a heisman QB (that can run) who is injured, and a backup QB (who is immobile) handing off to running backs against teams stacking guys in the box. When that team does decide to pass, they have an immobile QB who is terribly ineffective due to the problems (above) being amplified.

 

[daddyphatsacs]

I know people like to use the "trust the coaches" mantra, but they are human and not infallible.

Very true. That being said, the coaches draw the salary and answer the hard questions every week in the press. They also spend countless hours a week studying how to get better. You or I do it in our leisure time, as fans. We offer a few unproven suggestions knowing that if things don't work out, no biggie. If the coaches screw up too much.....well, you can do the math.

 

[Buckskin86]

OSU running backs friends, not rivals
Tuesday, October 5, 2010
By Tim May
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

If Ohio State football fans are debating feverishly over which tailbacks should play more, think what it must be like when those players get together every Thursday night for pizza and wings.

"We usually just watch a game," junior Daniel Herron said. "Sometimes we maybe talk about who we might be playing against, talk about different little schemes or whatever. We talk about football pretty much the whole time we're all together."

That's the point: They are all together, he said. Players from other positions are welcome - and some offensive linemen, receivers and

linebackers have shown up for the social at one of the running backs' apartments.

"Anybody's invited it's kind of like a team bonding thing," Herron said.

For the running backs, though, attendance is considered almost mandatory, he said.

"The running backs are always there faithfully," Herron said. "They come support."

As Brandon Saine said, "It lets the young guys realize that although there may be a competition within the room, we're still friends, we still have fun with each other. We realize the competition actually makes us better and makes us want to hang out together and everything."

http://www.dispatch.com/live/conten...running-backs-friends-not-rivals.html?sid=101

 

[lvbuckeye]

I am getting a bit frustrated when I see Saine in the backfield anymore. This kid has a ton of speed and would be great off the edge, but it seems they try to pound him in the middle where he always gets hung up. He seems tentative this year, stutter-stepping himself into DL/LB and not hitting the holes with force. Don't get me wrong here, he is a great asset to have when he comes out of the backfield and catches on the run, but he just doesn't seem comfortable as a true smash mouth back that you run up the middle, yet we see that play over and over.

THEY aren't forcing him to run up the middle. he isn't running the plays proplerly. he simply can't run in a zone blocking offense. he doesn't see the holes, and he can't make the cuts.

Boom, on the other hand, seems to be running with head of steam on every play, keeping his legs going and hitting holes quickly. Although he is not as big, he seems to cover the ball up, put his head down and try to bury the DL/LB and run right over them. IMO he should be the one we try to jam up the middle, not Saine.

Boom sees the hole. that's why he has a head of steam. and he's got just enough cuts to bounce it.

As far as getting the younger guys reps, maybe a play or two here and there, but, since Boom and Saine are going to be our mainstays this year, I would like to see them utilized for what they CAN do and not what they SHOULD be able to do. Five games in and we can see who can do what in game situations. I hope to see some changes against IU next week. We will see.

if the coaches are going to roll in the entire second team O-line for the third series every game, i see no reason why they shouldn't roll in Hall and Berry for a series as well.

 

[lvbuckeye]

I have said in another thread that I wouldn't mind them putting him at WR full time since we still have no established #3, and he does have fantastic hand to go with a pretty good feel for getting open. This would be well outside of Tressel's MO however, so it probably won't happen.

Saine looks good as a receiver because he's going against a linebacker or safety all the time. if he was going against a corner, his lacks of cuts would make him a liability.

 

[Buckskin86]

Ohio State looking to energize the non-Pryor portion of the Buckeyes' running game
Published: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Doug Lesmerises, The Plain Dealer

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Terrelle Pryor's strained left quadriceps should improve every day, and so by Saturday, Ohio State coach Jim Tressel expects his quarterback to be fine. OSU receiver Dane Sanzenbacher said Pryor took all the snaps with the first-team offense on Tuesday and looked to be the same as always.

The Buckeyes got a taste of life without Pryor on Saturday, though, and Sanzenbacher knows that if Pryor isn't himself against Indiana in three days, the Hoosiers' defense will adjust to defend an offense where the quarterback is less of a threat.

"It'd be dumb not to if you thought you could exploit something like that," Sanzenbacher said.

That would put more pressure on the rest of Ohio State's running game, and after Saturday, it's reasonable to question if the Buckeyes could handle that. The Ohio State running backs gained 109 yards on 31 carries, a 3.5-yard average.

"I don't know what happened, it just wasn't us," OSU senior left guard Justin Boren said. "I don't think one game should define who we are as a unit. If you look at the previous four games, as an offensive line we played well. Granted on Saturday we did not put together a good performance. We know after watching the film, we have to get after it this week."

http://www.cleveland.com/osu/index.ssf/2010/10/ohio_state_looking_to_energize.html

 

[fourteenandoh]

here is a great writeup from a blog i have began following. they have pretty good x's and o's analysis. they seem to agree with LV that Saine just isn't running the plays properly. the original piece has links to youtube videos of all they plays he is talking about.

http://www.alongtheolentangy.com/2010/10/5/1728803/ohio-state-v-illinois-offensive-game-review





The Ohio State Running Backs
I hinted at this above, but this brings me to my next topic. I am not trying to gang up on the kid--for all I know he is pressing too hard. But Brandon Saine right now is holding this offense back and him carrying the ball is counterproductive. At this point, it does not matter if the offense blocks the play well-he does not run to the hole, but instead dances in the backfield and runs right into blockers. Saine is failing in the basic task of simply following his fullback. Two examples below. In the first, OSU runs counter zone. But Saine does not run the play. He does not follow Z. Boren on the counter, but instead tries to run straight up field. But as the diagram above shows, that is precisely where the offensive line is trying to block the play.


Below is an outside zone play. As noted, this play is designed to be run outside the tight end. If Saine simply follows his fullback, look at all the green grass to the outside...Instead he inexplicably runs right into the middle of the line.


I wish these were the exceptions but they were what I saw throughout the film. People can blame the line all they want but you are not going to look good as an offensive line if your running back does not know or refuses to run to the pre-designated hole. Frankly, this can't continue for OSU to have any chance of running the football. Boom Herron will likely never break a big run. And Boom misses bounce out opportunities at time also--this is why teams feel comfortable crashing down when they see an off tackle play. For example, Boom missed a great opportunity on the counter trey play I mentioned. But at least he runs with some authority and correctly attacks the hole or bounces it outside. I liked how he ran stretch. At this point, its hard to worry about running backs missing cutting opportunities when they can't even run the basic play as designed. I think Brandon Saine can continue to play a meaningful role in the passing game. But I think this again underscores the necessity of giving Jordan Hall rushing opportunities, particularly if the coaches want to limit Pryor's run opportunities. The bottom line is the offensive line needs to clear up some technique issues, but they are always going to look bad to the casual fan when running backs aren't taking advantage of the opportunities that they are providing.

 

[Zander42]

Good article, thanks for posting the link. I had a feeling after this week that Saine might be hitting things wrong. It's hard to see until the details are broken down like that.

It's almost like Saine is being told to work on a particular aspect of his game and he's over thinking it. Kind of like when we would see Pryor not run when he is given an easy 15 yards, because he wanted to be a 'pocket passer'. Happened quite a few times last year. I think Saine has been told not to string things out to the sideline or something, so now he just dances or runs into his linemen.

The kid has got the tools to be really good, he just needs to go out there and ball.

 

[bukIpower]

The biggest problem with the running game being inconsistent is that we dont have the dominating tackles that we are accustomed to having at Ohio State. The strength of our line is the interior 3 and everyone knows it. Now running the ball straight up the gut takes precision and perfect timing. The defense is going to have more strength in that area too most of the time. The quick hitters, the draw, the read option cutback are going to be the most successful right now until Shugarts takes it upon himself to start dominating the way he can and Adams decides he wants to be as good as his potential says he should be.

The quicker backs with better vision will perform better when the Oline isnt dominating. Hall and Berry are probably our quickest backs. Saine is a straight line runner with very high top end speed but his vision slows him down at times. Herron has the best vision and the most power, other than maybe Hyde. The sick thing is that we've had a couple of backs in the past that had ALL of these qualities and they were dominant leading us to dominating running. At this point we kind of have to see how the Oline is playing and the defense is adjusting to see which back is going to be most effective. It makes for some difficult in game adjustments, which I havent always felt was the strength of our coaching staff either.

We haven't had dominant tackles for a while now at OSU. Infact this is maybe the best BOOKEND tackles we've had in quite some time. Surely better than Boone/Rehring IMO, so I don't see how tackles have anything to do with running back production when we've had backs like Pittman, Johnathan Wells, MoC, and Beanie all play extremely well behind decent to good Olines.

Tackles aren't the problem, Heck offensive line talent is surely not a question either. IMO it boils down to a one thing, and I hate to say it because I feel like ya'll might question the appreciation I have for Brandon being a team leader and great role model. IMO though it boils down to our starter getting most if not all the reps through the first 2 quarters and not putting together ANYTHING what so ever. When you don't start off the game right with a few 5-10 yard runs then forget it your running game is going to struggle.

Start the game out with Boom and work Hall/Berry into the game as it goes on. Bring Saine in on 3rd down for his receiving skills. Because I believe Saine can be extremely effective but in doses, he just lacks the natural instincts of the RB position to play a larger role than just 3rd down back. Again I believe it's about picking your spots with Brandon beause he's not a every down back. There's a reason why Tressel always talks about his hands first and foremost EVERYTIME he mentions Brandon, and I really think for the running game o spark we need to find a rythem something we cannot do with a back who doesn't excel in a zone read offense

 

[Buckskin86]

Running game falls under scrutiny
Production at tailback remains spotty
Thursday, October 7, 2010 =
By Ken Gordon
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

The discussion of the strangest Ohio State running game in years is never-ending and has taken on a circular nature.

It's a which-comes-first conundrum: Are the tailbacks chicken or is the offensive line laying an egg?

And what about Jordan Hall?

For the first four weeks, it seemed as if the fan base was just looking for something to gripe about. The Buckeyes were scoring nearly 50 points a game and averaging more than 200 yards rushing, so who cared if a lot of those came from quarterback Terrelle Pryor?

Now, though, the issue is real and not perceived. At Illinois last week, two things happened:

? Pryor suffered a strained quadriceps, throwing doubt onto his ability to provide his team-leading 74.6 yards per game.

? The offensive line admittedly had a poor game, which conjures up ghosts of past years' struggles.

Heading into a home game Saturday against Indiana, it certainly seems as if Ohio State's co-starting tailbacks, Brandon Saine and Daniel Herron, will have to pick up their production.

"We want to show that other guys are capable of making plays besides Terrelle," Herron said. "We have a lot of great talent on this offense."

Perhaps, but something isn't right in the running game.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/conten...unning-game-falls-under-scrutiny.html?sid=101

 

[y0yoyoin]

i liked our game plan saturday of having Herron as the feature back and lining up saine in WR sets...id like to see us get creative and maybe have Herron and saine in the backfield in shotgun formations to keep defenses honest...i also think berry needs more carries...some of the holes that herron had saturday that were only 8 yard gains i believe could of been 20+ or taken to the house by berry if given the chance...either way the running game looked improved from last week and we will need to improve again this weekend against wisconsin

 

[pnuts34]

I think Berry is making a good case for why he should get more carries every week! This kid will get in and when he touches the ball it seems like all Buckeye fans hold our breath in anticipation of what this kid is gonna do(it might just be me). I loved seeing Saine line up in the slot and be used more as a WR. Herron looked decent in there as te 1, but Hall needs to get more touches as well. I like what Herron's been able to do this season, and I feel bad wanting to see more of Hall and Berry. Its a great problem to have since we have 3(possibly 4 in Hyde) that could start in a pinch.

 

[y0yoyoin]

I like what Herron's been able to do this season, and I feel bad wanting to see more of Hall and Berry. Its a great problem to have since we have 3(possibly 4 in Hyde) that could start in a pinch.

agreed...i may be alone here but i like berry's burst and vision alot better then hall's...i think hall is more similar to herron in their running abilities to hit the hole's inside the tackles...i think we need to start giving berry reps with the 1st stringers and see what this kid can truly do...we've seen what saine and herron can do and the running game can't possibly get any worse by letting berry get more carries