2009 TSUN News (football only discussion)

[billmac91]

As a sidenote...it probably isn't alarming if one coach negatively recruits against UM, and says there system is a college sytem, it isn't going to get you to the league. It's much different when 4 proven coaches tell you...."hey, we'd love you at our school, but I'm telling you, if you go to Michigan, you are decreasing your chances of making a livlihood at football". And I guarantee you when Michigan is the perceived leader or in the fight with other schools, that is all the recruit is hearing from multiple angles. You'd think it would have some impact...

 

[jwinslow]

I'm not sure I see RR having a starting lineup with this many draft picks:

2006 lineup:

QB - drafted
RB - drafted
FB - ---------
WR - drafted
WR - drafted
WR - drafted
TE - drafted
T - drafted
OL - --------
OL - --------
OL - --------
OL - --------
OL - --------
DE - drafted
DT - drafted
DT - Drafted
DE - ---------
LB - drafted
LB - drafted
LB - drafted
CB - drafted
CB - drafted
S - ----------
S - ----------
P - ***

*** Likely to be added soon

Future draft-picks Graham, Boren & Minor were good backups on this squad.

 

[mbama1]

Martin, Cissoko, Fitzgerald, Demens, Witherspoon were not his recruits. The only one that could maybe be attributed to RR is Martin, who was worried that RR would run a 3 man DL.
Or because he is not known as a defensive coach, does not have his defensive coordinator do any recruiting, and tends to recruit a lot of athletes on defense and sort it out later.

His 3-man front was also a deterrent in recruiting.

We played in a 4-3 last year under Shaffer, dabbled with the 3-3-5 for a little while there which obviously had RR's fingerprints all over it, but they went right back to the 4-3 once that was apparent it wasn't going to work out.

This 3 man front defense that we are deploying right now isn't Rodriguez' defense. It's Greg Robinson's.

 

[jwinslow]

This 3 man front defense that we are deploying right now isn't Rodriguez' defense. It's Greg Robinson's.

Do you think that's a coincidence?

 

[jwinslow]

Carr was consistently producing starting lineups of NFL players.

Drafted lineups of skill players

2006
QB Henne
RB Hart
WR Manningham
WR Arrington
WR Breaston
TE Ecker
LT Long

2003
QB Navarre
RB Perry
WR Edwards
WR Avant
TE (can I sub in Massaquoi here? :))

2001
QB Navarre
RB Askew
WR Walker
WR Edwards
TE Joppru

 

[mbama1]

As a sidenote...it probably isn't alarming if one coach negatively recruits against UM, and says there system is a college sytem, it isn't going to get you to the league. It's much different when 4 proven coaches tell you...."hey, we'd love you at our school, but I'm telling you, if you go to Michigan, you are decreasing your chances of making a livlihood at football". And I guarantee you when Michigan is the perceived leader or in the fight with other schools, that is all the recruit is hearing from multiple angles. You'd think it would have some impact...

Well, Urban Meyer at Florida runs a very similar system on offense right now, and they will have no problem placing offensive players in the NFL over the next few years.

Obviously not very many 5'9/5'10 WR's will be getting drafted come NFL draft time. But those aren't the only types of WR's that we are recruiting.

Darryl Stonum (6'2"), JeRon Stokes (6'0"), Roy Roundtree (6'1") and the incoming players like Jerald Robinson (6'2"), Jeremy Jackson (6'4"), and Ricardo Miller (6'2") are the proto-typical type WR's size-wise that Carr used to sign nearly every class.

(***Note did not include Cam Gordon who is 6'2" and did come in at WR, because he is red-shirting and will likely wind up at linebacker***)

 

[jwinslow]

I'm not saying Carr is a better coach to win CFB games, but RR's track record is producing less NFL talent than his predecessor. I think that will hold true here as well.

From his past at WVU, current roster and incoming recruits, I don't see him holding a candle to the 2-3 NFL draft pick lineups that Carr routinely put together at UM.

Well, Urban Meyer at Florida runs a very similar system on offense right now, and they will have no problem placing offensive players in the NFL over the next few years.

Sure about that? Demps & Rainey are late picks at best. Moody is probably the same.
None of the current WRs are very attractive right now.

Tebow is thought by many to be the GOAT in CFB, yet most scouts still don't believe he's a franchise quarterback at the next level.

Hernandez will be attractive, but by and large UF's system is more college friendly than productive for the draft.

 

[mbama1]

Do you think that's a coincidence?

Yes, it is.

The defense is entirely Greg Robinson's. The type of scheme that he is running is very similar the scheme that USC has been running under Carroll, and that scheme has worked very well for 'SC.

We obviously don't have that type of talent or depth right now and we likely never will. I mean seriously, USC's recruiting on defense has been pretty much unmatched.

Back to the topic though, if you watched that ND-USC game you would've seen Everson Griffen lining up at DE rushing the passer and also at OLB dropping into pass coverage. Pretty much the same position that Craig Roh plays right now. Griffen has a couple years and 25 pounds on Roh right now.

The defense that Robinson is trying to implement is completely different to anything than that odd-stack 3-3-5 that WVU ran under Rodriguez/Casteel.

 

[jwinslow]

Yes, it is.

The defense is entirely Greg Robinson's.

It's a coincidence that the year after RR hired a horrendous coach - in terms of fit, personality, etc - his replacement runs a 3-man front?

Back to the topic though, if you watched that ND-USC game you would've seen Everson Griffen lining up at DE rushing the passer and also at OLB dropping into pass coverage.

Griffen was 266 coming out of HS.

A 4th hybrid DL can work, but you better have some talented big uglies beside him. Instead, RR added no new DTs in the 09 class, 1 in 10, and has added 2 hybrid prospects in Roh & Kinnard.

edit: Campbell verballed to UM 15 months before RR lost to Pitt.

 

[Buckeye86]

Well, Urban Meyer at Florida runs a very similar system on offense right now, and they will have no problem placing offensive players in the NFL over the next few years.

based on what? are they going to magically start producing more offensive players?

2009
Percy Harvin WR
Louis Murphy WR
Cornelius Ingram TE

2008
Andre Caldwell WR

2007
Dallas Baker WR
DeShawn Wynn RB

2006
Chad Jackson WR

2005
Ciatrick Fason RB

2004
Ben Troupe TE
Max Starks OL

2003
Rex Grossman QB
Taylor Jacobs WR
Aaron Walker TE

2002
Jabar Gaffney WR
Reche Caldwell WR

 

[mbama1]

It's a coincidence that the year after RR hired a horrendous coach - in terms of fit, personality, etc - his replacement runs a 3-man front?

Yes, it really is. You are trying to make something out of nothing.

This is Greg Robinson's defense. Robinson could've pretty much named his ticket at any open DC in college football, and Carroll was pursuing him at USC.

He wasn't going to come to Michigan and to be a "figure-head" DC and run whatever Rich Rodriguez told him to.

Griffen was 266 coming out of HS.

Don't know what he was coming out of high school, but I do know that the official USC athletics web-site lists him at 265 pounds.

Regardless, the point still stands. Griffen has got 25 pounds and 2 years on Roh. I think Roh could become nearly as beastly as Griffen is right now when he's a JR. and up to about 260 pounds.

A 4th hybrid DL can work, but you better have some talented big uglies beside him. Instead, RR added no new DTs in the 09 or 10 classes, and has added 2 hybrid prospects in Roh & Kinnard.

Will Campbell was added in the '09 class. Doesn't he count as a new DT?

In the '10 class Terry Talbott is suppose to be coming in as a DT, and he's listed at 265 right now. Has some work to do to get up there in weight and will probably red-shirt, but no reason why he cannot be over 280 as a RS frosh.

Rich just put an offer out to Beau Allen out of Minnesota who is listed at 300+ pounds, and there are rumblings that Jonathan Hankins out of Detroit (who is north of 320) will be getting an offer soon, and if Hankins gets an offer he commits.

Hankins should've been offered a long time ago. When you run those 3 man fronts, it's usually a good idea to have a gigantic space eater in the middle.

 

[jwinslow]

Yes, it really is. You are trying to make something out of nothing.

This is Greg Robinson's defense. Robinson could've pretty much named his ticket at any open DC in college football, and Carroll was pursuing him at USC.

He wasn't going to come to Michigan and to be a "figure-head" DC and run whatever Rich Rodriguez told him to.

You're missing my point. I'm not saying he's going to emasculate Robinson like he did Shafer. But wouldn't he hire someone who ran a scheme that fits his preference?

Don't know what he was coming out of high school, but I do know that the official USC athletics web-site lists him at 265 pounds.

I wasn't guessing. Go look up his recruiting articles from 07, they list him at 265.

I think Roh can be a special player, but I don't see the same kind of specimen.

Will Campbell was added in the '09 class. Doesn't he count as a new DT?

Will Campbell verballed to Carr 15 months before RR lost to Pitt. He played his games, but he was always a wolverine.

In the '10 class Terry Talbott is suppose to be coming in as a DT, and he's listed at 265 right now.

Bad mistake there, not sure where my brain was at.

Hankins should've been offered a long time ago. When you run those 3 man fronts, it's usually a good idea to have a gigantic space eater in the middle.

I get the hesitancy with Hankins, but they weren't that picky with some of their offensive gambles, Feagin, Robinson, Roundtree, etc... (or Drake, Williamson, Jones)

What was the name of that DT/ATH from Texas who wanted to verbal to UM, was turned down, and is now a Seminole verbal? Those are the types of kids they needed 20 months ago, and certainly in the classes since then.

 

[NFBuck]

Yes, it really is. You are trying to make something out of nothing.

This is Greg Robinson's defense. Robinson could've pretty much named his ticket at any open DC in college football, and Carroll was pursuing him at USC.

I think what jwins is getting at is that rr went out and found a DC that suits his preferences.

Will Campbell was added in the '09 class. Doesn't he count as a new DT?

In the '10 class Terry Talbott is suppose to be coming in as a DT, and he's listed at 265 right now. Has some work to do to get up there in weight and will probably red-shirt, but no reason why he cannot be over 280 as a RS frosh.

Rich just put an offer out to Beau Allen out of Minnesota who is listed at 300+ pounds, and there are rumblings that Jonathan Hankins out of Detroit (who is north of 320) will be getting an offer soon, and if Hankins gets an offer he commits.

Hankins should've been offered a long time ago. When you run those 3 man fronts, it's usually a good idea to have a gigantic space eater in the middle.

Big Will is looking like more of a projet than a lot of um prognosticators were saying. Iowa was making a fool out of him. There were a number of people that thought his brightest future was on the OL and after seeing him (granted in a limited sample size), he's done nothing to disprove that.

Talbott is a project and not exactly a blue chipper.

Hankins is an even bigger project and seems to be begging for offers at this point.

 

[mbama1]

You're missing my point. I'm not saying he's going to emasculate Robinson like he did Shafer. But wouldn't he hire someone who ran a scheme that fits his preference?

Ok, I see where you were coming from now, and I don't know if I necessarily agree. Our defense was terrible in 2008, despite running the 4-3 or dabbling in the 3-3-5. We needed an upgrade at DC, and we got one in Greg Robinson.

His philosophies on a base defense falling more in-line with Rodriguez' than Shaffer's is irrelevant IMO. We needed better than Shaffer and we got it in Robinson.

I think Roh can be a special player, but I don't see the same kind of specimen.

Roh looks skinny, sure but he's a 6'4, 238 pound true frosh. Like a lot of true freshman, he needs to fill out and add 15 or 20 pounds and he will in time.

Will Campbell verballed to Carr 15 months before RR lost to Pitt. He played his games, but he was always a wolverine

Campbell de-committed, visited other schools. Rodriguez still had to recruit him up until the very end. Rodriguez just didn't sit on his hands and knees on that one and wait for Will to sign his LOI. He kept recruiting him, as he should have.

I get the hesitancy with Hankins, but they weren't that picky with some of their offensive gambles, Feagin, Robinson, Roundtree, etc... (or Drake, Williamson, Jones)

I don't know that Terrence Robinson or Roy Roundtree can be considered offensive gambles at all. Robinson and Roundtree were both rated as 4*'s by both Rivals and Scout. I don't think you pass 4* athletes if they want to come. Both of them are still RS Freshman, and both show some promise.

Feagin wasn't really a gamble either. We had no QB's, we needed somebody and he was the best available option on short notice. Had Rich's #1 option for a QB, Terrelle Pryor, picked Michigan, Feagin never even comes to Michigan.

I also disagree with you on Drake, because watching his high-lites and looking at the numbers he's putting up as a senior in a very tough district in Texas, that kid looks like a player.

As far as Williamson and Jones goes, I agree with you all the way. I think those are gambles and Rodriguez got very early commits from them when he probably could've waited till he struck out on others before taking them.

What was the name of that DT/ATH from Texas who wanted to verbal to UM, was turned down, and is now a Seminole verbal? Those are the types of kids they needed 20 months ago, and certainly in the classes since then.

Holmes Onwukaife, and he's a 3* on Scout and Rivals in the 2010 class. He's not a DT prospect either, he's about 220-225. He projects as an OLB in a 4-3 or a Quick in Robinson's scheme. They already had Kinnard and Paskorz as Quick. Are they going to take a third quick?

 

[mbama1]

Big Will is looking like more of a projet than a lot of um prognosticators were saying. Iowa was making a fool out of him. There were a number of people that thought his brightest future was on the OL and after seeing him (granted in a limited sample size), he's done nothing to disprove that.

TRUE FRESHMAN defensive tackle.

How many true freshman defensive tackle dominate from the word go? That is one of the hardest positions for 18/19 year old freshman to come in and play.

Also, you do understand that Iowa has one of the best offensive lines in the Big Ten right?

Will is going to be fine. He's shown that he is willing to put in the work and he's re-shaped his body and dropped at least 20 pounds since he's been in Ann Arbor.

If Will isn't making a serviceable contribution midway through his sophomore season, then I'll hit the panic button. Right now, it's way too early.

Talbott is a project and not exactly a blue chipper.

Nobody has said otherwise.

Talbott most certainly needs a redshirt, as I hinted in my post about him. I was merely pointing out to jwinslow that Talbott is coming in the '10 class.

Hankins is an even bigger project and seems to be begging for offers at this point.

Hankins isn't really that big of a project to be honest. He's got some quickness, he's got great size, he's got great strength. He's a very good player, but his conditioning is an issue. He's listed by Rivals at 326 pounds. He's probably more like 350 pounds. If he was in better condition, like say 310 pounds, he'd have offers from everybody.