2009 TSUN News (football only discussion)

[HailToMichigan]

Okay, I'll bite.

Gardner is a good get, no doubt, and is perfect for DickRod's system. He's raw though and better hope Forcier survives the year to give him time to develop. Tater, likewise, if he isn't torn in half. That's QB, congrats. They're both very good recruits. Miller may very well be a good reciever too, but where are the RB's? I see a lot of smurfs. And do you seriously think you have a chance at Henderson? Really? If so, I have some beans I think you may be interested in. Cambell, Turner and Robinson are top recruits, but where are the others? Your depth in the front 6/7 is awful, what top prospects are you guys really in on to improve that? I don't see any. I'm talking top-10 at their position, because those kind of guys used to pick um...they're not anymore. At least not at the level they have in the past. You listed 3 "blue chip" defensive recruits over a 2 year period on defense, and 3 on offense. I'm fully aware it's still early, but who does um look to be in on? Don't act like your brethren weren't forecasting utter domination by DickRod and his staff when he took the job. Are you honestly arguing that your guys recruiting has been up to snuff with years past?

Here's what you have so far...


One in the top-10 in his position. Those #'s are Purdue, Iowa or Wisconsin level. Those NR's aren't gonna be there either. Please explain how you think DR's defensive recruiting has you feeling good about the future.

And you have.....two. Of your defensive recruits, there's this: OLB - 3; MLB - NR; DE - 44. But I'm guessing you're not worried.

Henderson is taking an official to Michigan this fall. I'm not sure what basis you have for saying we have no chance, and you never know how much to read into the great stuff he said about his first visit, but wanting to come back and burn an official on it is good news to me.

And yes, I'm arguing that our recruiting is up to snuff as compared to years past. 2007 for example was actually kind of weak outside of Mallett and Warren. We had 13 four-stars last year and 17 in 2008. We had five four-stars in 2007, nine in 2006, and ten in 2005.

Plus, anyone, Michigan fan or otherwise, who thinks the way things look in April is the way they'll look next January, is fooling themselves. There's a lot of signees on that '09 list who were barely on the radar at this time last year. Nobody would have said we had much of a shot at Craig Roh - we'd just recently offered him. His teammate Lewan wasn't offered til September. Washington, Stokes, etc. I could go on. April's too early to worry about who we don't have.

 

[heisman]

Didn't your team used to be full of blue chippers?

Haven't you heard? RR says the cupboard is bare but he will turn things around. :)

 

[NFBuck]

Duh, Barwis.

Barwis!!!!!!!!!1!!!1!11!1!!!

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

Wait a sec. What are Gardner, Miller, and Marvin Robinson if not blue-chip players? What are Campbell, Forcier, and Turner if not blue-chippers? Would Seantrel Henderson be blue-chip enough for you? I think you're underrating our classes at least as much as you think the Scout-boards crowd overrates them.

I consider 5-stars, and sometimes top-of-the-heap 4-stars, as "blue chippers". So, your 2010 class has nine commits, with four 4-stars and five 3-stars or less. Of those, I'd consider Cargder and maybe Marv Robinson as "blue-chip". Not exactly a world-beater class...yet.

Your 2009 class had 22 commits with (two/one) 5-stars (Scout/Rivals), and thirteen 3-stars or less (Scout) and eight 3-stars or less (Rivals). For the bolded part of your quote, Rivals was far more generous to Michigan's 2009 class (six more 4-stars and a team ranking of 8th vice 14th by Scout).

 

[jwinslow]

Wait a sec. What are Gardner, Miller, and Marvin Robinson if not blue-chip players? What are Campbell, Forcier, and Turner if not blue-chippers?

I think offense is just fine, though Forcier does not fit the billing for a blue-chipper (we're talking recruiting, not how they develop). He has recruited well enough on RR's side of the ball.

Defense recruiting has not been good enough so far. The three standout defensive recruits - listed above - would have been wolverines regardless of the HC, or close to it. After those with connections (Roh, Mathis probably), he seems to pull off most of his defensive recruiting battles against second-tier schools. They may very well develop into players, but they feel like the type of kids he would recruit at WVU.

Jerald Robinson. Antonio Kinnard. Adrian Witty. The Gordons. Isaiah Bell. Even Vlad, while a player, is a kid that schools like USF or WVU land.

Mike Jones' offer list puts him above that caliber of prospect, but he's more solid than spectacular.


He lost a large majority of his defensive battles against big time schools without a built in tie to UM:

Fellows. Winston. Kirkpatrick. Graves. Jones. Mingo. Montgomery. Tate. Ezell. McPhee.

In contrast, he snagged some good offensive weapons:

Robinson. Schofield. Stokes. Washington. Forcier. Lewan. Smith.

 

[NFBuck]

And you have.....two. Of your defensive recruits, there's this: OLB - 3; MLB - NR; DE - 44. But I'm guessing you're not worried.

Nope, because we have depth from previous classes. I'm also not hearing about walk-ons repping with the ones and twos in spring practices, nor am I hearing our insiders preaching how this year could be rough due to the lack of depth. At the same time, we're in good position hor the #1 CB, and two of the top LB recruits out there. This will be a smallish class for us, but the last two have brought in a lot of top prospects. It's called recruiting for need.

Henderson is taking an official to Michigan this fall. I'm not sure what basis you have for saying we have no chance, and you never know how much to read into the great stuff he said about his first visit, but wanting to come back and burn an official on it is good news to me.

Let me know if you're interested in those beans.

And yes, I'm arguing that our recruiting is up to snuff as compared to years past. 2007 for example was actually kind of weak outside of Mallett and Warren. We had 13 four-stars last year and 17 in 2008. We had five four-stars in 2007, nine in 2006, and ten in 2005.

Fair enough, but if those recruits were properly dispersed over offense and defense, you wouldn't be in such peril when it comes to depth. And as jwins points out above, many of those kids you got are kids that you got over some lesser programs. DR's battles against top programs for kids without um ties didn't end well.

Plus, anyone, Michigan fan or otherwise, who thinks the way things look in April is the way they'll look next January, is fooling themselves. There's a lot of signees on that '09 list who were barely on the radar at this time last year. Nobody would have said we had much of a shot at Craig Roh - we'd just recently offered him. His teammate Lewan wasn't offered til September. Washington, Stokes, etc. I could go on. April's too early to worry about who we don't have.

Again, good point and I did say it was early. But you're playing with fire if you wait to get in on kids too late. DR closed well last year, and maybe he will again, but looking at how his offers are spread out, I'd be concerned with how he's neglecting the DL and LB in particular. He's bringing in some nice DBs, but I don't see a lot of LBers or top DL that he's after.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

And you have.....two. Of your defensive recruits, there's this: OLB - 3; MLB - NR; DE - 44. But I'm guessing you're not worried.

Uh, that's two 5-stars out of four commits, dipshit, not one out of nine commits. Also, there's this thing called "recruiting by need". We need a few more solid OL, and the one we got is the second best in the country at his position. We're not really hurting for MLBs, and as you've see us do recently we're pretty good at shifting LBs around and having them suceed (e.g., Laurinaitis moving from SLB to MLB after his frosh season), so dinging us for not yet having a Mike is laughable. We have only two defensive commits like you do, but the #3 OLB and #44 DE is higher than the #14 S and #46 DE...and your defense is definitely hurting more than ours. But go ahead and keep on recruiting WRs and RBs...

 

[jwinslow]

And you have.....two. Of your defensive recruits, there's this: OLB - 3; MLB - NR; DE - 44. But I'm guessing you're not worried.

When RR develops a track record for churning out defensive prospects... then you'll get the benefit of the doubt. Not before, and certainly not when his strength and talent imbalance is clearly on the offensive side of the ball.

Nobody would have said we had much of a shot at Craig Roh - we'd just recently offered him.

Disagree with this statement, especially in comparison to most of the defensive players on UM's board.

 

[HailToMichigan]

I think offense is just fine, though Forcier does not fit the billing for a blue-chipper (we're talking recruiting, not how they develop). He has recruited well enough on RR's side of the ball.

Defense recruiting has not been good enough so far. The three standout defensive recruits - listed above - would have been wolverines regardless of the HC, or close to it. After those with connections (Roh, Mathis probably), he seems to pull off most of his defensive recruiting battles against second-tier schools. They may very well develop into players, but they feel like the type of kids he would recruit at WVU.

Jerald Robinson. Antonio Kinnard. Adrian Witty. The Gordons. Isaiah Bell. Even Vlad, while a player, is a kid that schools like USF or WVU land.

Mike Jones' offer list puts him above that caliber of prospect, but he's more solid than spectacular.


He lost a large majority of his defensive battles against big time schools without a built in tie to UM:

Fellows. Winston. Kirkpatrick. Graves. Jones. Mingo. Montgomery. Tate. Ezell. McPhee.

In contrast, he snagged some good offensive weapons:

Robinson. Schofield. Stokes. Washington. Forcier. Lewan. Smith.

I call Forcier a blue-chipper because of the huge number of offers he got. Florida, LSU, Auburn, Penn State, Tennessee, Nebraska - that's a blue-chip-type list, even if Rivals/Scout think he's a four-star.

For Vlad, we beat out OSU and Tennessee. For LaLota, Florida, FSU, Penn State, and Notre Dame. Tennessee (pre-Kiffin) for Brandin Hawthorne as well. And of course, there's Campbell and Turner.

The things you're saying about some of the lesser recruits RR's brought in - couldn't you say the same about both pre-RR Michigan classes and current OSU classes? I mean, you guys get real excited about, say, Reid Fragel, but you beat out Purdue, Cincy, Miami, Maryland, and MSU for him. Just as an example, not Buckeye-bashing, to make that clear.

 

[Sportsbuck28]

For Vlad, we beat out OSU

Given the circumstances of his recruitment thats pretty debatable.

 

[NFBuck]

I call Forcier a blue-chipper because of the huge number of offers he got. Florida, LSU, Auburn, Penn State, Tennessee, Nebraska - that's a blue-chip-type list, even if Rivals/Scout think he's a four-star.

That is an impressive offer list and deservedly so. He was a helluva HS QB. He's also come into camp very undersized. I'm skeptical that he can stay healthy an entire season if he doesn't bulk up considerably.

For Vlad, we beat out OSU and Tennessee. For LaLota, Florida, FSU, Penn State, and Notre Dame. Tennessee (pre-Kiffin) for Brandin Hawthorne as well. And of course, there's Campbell and Turner.

tOSU recruited Vlad heavily early on, then dropped him before apparently jumping back in very late IIRC. Cambell and Turner were blue all the way very early on, despite Big Will's late game theatrics. Turner grew up a um fan and never really considered anybody else. Wouldn't consider those wins over anybody anymore than I'd consider lifelong tOSU fans that commit early on a victory.

The things you're saying about some of the lesser recruits RR's brought in - couldn't you say the same about both pre-RR Michigan classes and current OSU classes? I mean, you guys get real excited about, say, Reid Fragel, but you beat out Purdue, Cincy, Miami, Maryland, and MSU for him. Just as an example, not Buckeye-bashing, to make that clear.

Like jwins said, when DR/um shows a track record of coaching up underrated talent, he'll get the benefit of the doubt. Also, we weren't battling it out against lower-tier southern schools for kids in positions of dire need. Those were mostly depth kids, not kids we needed to fill positions immediately.

 

[NFBuck]

Given the circumstances of his recruitment thats pretty debatable.

"That's debatable..."

 

[jwinslow]

Forcier is a rabbit trail. Offensive recruiting is fine, even impressive at times given what he is selling at the moment. The defensive situation is offensive right now, and the impact players are not there.

HTM, which of those names you just listed were big time recruits?

I'm not even sure Lalota can cut it on defense. He has his heart set on it, but he's an OL imo. As for Tennessee, a good program which is a few rungs down... on an Auburn level... in the recruiting prestige dept, imo. Either way, those guys don't really defeat my point.

The things you're saying about some of the lesser recruits RR's brought in - couldn't you say the same about both pre-RR Michigan classes and current OSU classes? I mean, you guys get real excited about, say, Reid Fragel, but you beat out Purdue, Cincy, Miami, Maryland, and MSU for him. Just as an example, not Buckeye-bashing, to make that clear.

This example doesn't make any sense. Reid Fragel plays TE (maybe OT). OSU has been a black hole for TEs. Landing him doesn't disprove that.

You could say that about certain offensive positions that OSU has brought in. Their lower-ranked guys at QB, OL & TE have been poorly developed or under-utilized in past years. Guys like Sam Longo need to prove otherwise with OSU's track record. So does RR's defensive recruiting.

 

[jwinslow]

The things you're saying about some of the lesser recruits RR's brought in - couldn't you say the same about both pre-RR Michigan classes and current OSU classes?

Fine, let's do that. Let's do... exactly... that.

Throw out the heavy leans, regardless of coach: Jamel Turner, Storm Klein, Johnny Simon, Jamie Wood. Marvin Robinson, JT Turner, Will Campbell.

Who were the recruiting coups for JT on defense? ... Dorian Bell, Corey Brown, Etienne Sabino, Garrett Goebel, Keith Wells.
Who were the recruiting coups for RR on defense? ..... Craig Roh and ???

(These are based on practice reports:)
Who were the sleeper steals for JT on defense? ................ Dominic Clarke, Travis Howard, Orhian Johnson.
Who were the sleeper steals for RR on defense? ................ Vlad Emilien, Brandon Hawthorne

The sleepers are nice, but not enough without the Sabinos, Bells, Turners, etc.

 

[NFBuck]

Forcier is a rabbit trail. Offensive recruiting is fine, even impressive at times given what he is selling at the moment. The defensive situation is offensive right now, and the impact players are not there.

HTM, which of those names you just listed were big time recruits?

I'm not even sure Lalota can cut it on defense. He has his heart set on it, but he's an OL imo. As for Tennessee, a good program which is a few rungs down... on an Auburn level... in the recruiting prestige dept, imo. Either way, those guys don't really defeat my point.
This example doesn't make any sense. Reid Fragel plays TE (maybe OT). OSU has been a black hole for TEs. Landing him doesn't disprove that.

You could say that about certain offensive positions that OSU has brought in. Their lower-ranked guys at QB, OL & TE have been poorly developed or under-utilized in past years. Guys like Sam Longo need to prove otherwise with OSU's track record. So does RR's defensive recruiting.

Fine, let's do that. Let's do... exactly... that.

Throw out the heavy leans, regardless of coach: Jamel Turner, Storm Klein, Johnny Simon, Jamie Wood. Marvin Robinson, JT Turner, Will Campbell.

Who were the recruiting coups for JT on defense? ... Dorian Bell, Corey Brown, Etienne Sabino, Garrett Goebel, Keith Wells.
Who were the recruiting coups for RR on defense? ..... Craig Roh and ???

(These are based on practice reports:)
Who were the sleeper steals for JT on defense? ................ Dominic Clarke, Travis Howard, Orhian Johnson.
Who were the sleeper steals for RR on defense? ................ Vlad Emilien, Brandon Hawthorne

The sleepers are nice, but not enough without the Sabinos, Bells, Turners, etc.

jwins always brings it.