2009 tOSU Offense Discussion

[Yertle]

Meh, I'm still not buying it. You throw out one example (Florida) from a crappy ass conference and say that the two stats can't be related? Meh, I say.

Granted, I've thrown out no stats... sure, I'll admit it. But, it just makes common sense that Buckeye game plans (actually, most of Big 10 football) leads to fewer plays, and therefore, worse offensive and better defensive stats. The Bucks have been routinely a top 10 defensive team... in points and total yards. How about yards per play? If we're top 10 year in and year out in defensive ypp, then you've convinced me. But, I don't believe the Bucks have truly had a top 10 defense since 2005 and 2002. I believe it's the offensive game plan that pads our defensive stats.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Meh, I'm still not buying it. You throw out one example (Florida) from a crappy ass conference and say that the two stats can't be related? Meh, I say.

Granted, I've thrown out no stats... sure, I'll admit it. But, it just makes common sense that Buckeye game plans (actually, most of Big 10 football) leads to fewer plays, and therefore, worse offensive and better defensive stats. The Bucks have been routinely a top 10 defensive team... in points and total yards. How about yards per play? If we're top 10 year in and year out in defensive ypp, then you've convinced me. But, I don't believe the Bucks have truly had a top 10 defense since 2005 and 2002. I believe it's the offensive game plan that pads our defensive stats.

I don't have data going back that far. I'd bet DBB does and I would bet even further that our defense has consistently ranked high in DYPP.

Thats neither here nor there however. Your equating bad offense to good defense and by that inferring that if we were better on offense the defense would suffer. That is patently false.

If the offense had a lot of TO's, low 3rd down conversion or sucked at scoring points then it would be hurting the defense. Scoring points on offense does not hurt the defense.

 

[DaddyBigBucks]

I don't have data going back that far. I'd bet DBB does and I would bet even further that our defense has consistently ranked high in DYPP...

Not sure how far back you want to go, but yeah...

If you look at This Post from a couple of days ago, you'll see that The Buckeye defense has been in the Top 10 (top 8 actually) in Differential Yards per Pass Attempt for every year I have data, which is back to 2004. If the '04 defense was top 10 in that stat (#7 to be exact), I'd bet body parts that '02 and '03 were top 10 also.

Differential Yards per Carry is less consistent; but still better than some seem to think. OSU was #1 in the nation in both '05 and '07 and #12 in '06. They slipped to #39 in that metric last year. Defensive DYPC is exhibit A for the enormous underperformance of last year's veteran defense.

Getting back to the point though, Buckeye defenses have been stout under Jim Tressel with amazing consistency. I will be posting more info on this later in the week in the stat thread.

 

[ArmyVet83]

I'm gonna call bullshit on this statement. Is it JT's fault when the OL false starts, holds, etc? Is it JT's fault when an interception is thrown
? Or when personal foul flags are covering the lawn? We all know what Tressel ball is about, and these factors defeat internally the very thing that Tressel attempts to do.


No shit. He's 83-19 at a much larger school that is also on a whole nother eschelon of difficulty. The dude kicks ass.



You have much different glasses on than I do. Florida was undone from the beginning by personal fouls, other penalties, and a huge injury to Teddy. USC was done because of turnovers. LSU was simply a better team. Am I saying that we shoulda/woulda won those games without these events occurring? No. But the outcome could have been much different in terms of points AND THIS HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH TRESSEL'S GAME CALLING.

To a degree, it does fall on JT even more so on Bollman (JTs boy) on linemen discipline or overall team discipline and preparation with PFs and other penalties at other positions. Discipline starts at the top and works it way down. Do I expect penalties in games? Of course but there are penalties that can be avoided if a team (including coaches) prep for it.

I'm not downplaying what JT has accomplished and agree he kicks ass in the Big Ten. However I do agree with some folks that the Big Ten is not the strongest conference from top to bottom. If your primary goal year in and year out is to beat scUM and win a somewhat weak Big Ten then IMO you haven't set the bar high enough. Making it to a BCS game and losing does not cut it. I am proud of those guys and how they played against Texas though.

A huge injury to Teddy. I would say you get it then. The coaches made Teddy the focus of the game plan. He gets hurt and guess what the coaches buckle. If the coaches had a half a clue, the Bucks could have run Pittman and Wells all night on the Gators but the coaches chose to put the ball and the game in Troy's hands without his primary weapon. Penalties are part of the game and I agree with you that the Bucks hurt themselves with penalties (and some of those were give-mes by the refs). USC made the Bucks one-dimensional and guess what? Pete Carroll and his staff threw things at the Bucks that were not on tape. Hell even Sanchez said the Bucks did not throw anything at them that they had not seen in practice. WOW!! Big neon sign if I have ever seen one. And LSU a better team. Overall I agree especially at the QB position but again we got down and could not comeback.

Bottom line is this, if Ohio State wants to beat the big boys, Tressel must change up his schemes. And I agree with most of the posters that the OL is a big part of the reason the Bucks have the problems that they have. But who coaches the OL? Bollman! Who decides if Bollman is the OC/OL coach? Jim Tressel. The problems with the OL is a two part problem, talent and coaching. The Bucks have talent now and more coming in. What will be the excuse if these guys do not perform?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Army - I agree with your assertion about the Florida game. Pittman was having success before the ball was taken out of his hands (in no small part to the fact that OSU was falling behind quickly) and "shortening the game" - at least in retrospect - was probably a good idea. I'm not sure "putting the ball in Smith's hands" was a mistake, considering what he had accomplished at Ohio State up to that point, but you make a valid observation about him not having anyone to throw to. Still, Smith was "the man" and had bailed OSU out before... I'm sure that the coaches still considered him the best option to do it again.

As it was, the key play which indicated to me that the coaches were flailing that night was going for it on 4th down in OSU's own territory. Tressel punts that ball 100 times out of 100.. but didn't that time. I remember saying out loud "Oh, this is no good" even though I was reasonably sure at the time that Wells would get the half yard (which, of course, he did not) I think even Tress himself has remarked since that that was the play where he realized they didn't "want it enough"

 

[jwinslow]

Army - I agree with your assertion about the Florida game. Pittman was having success before the ball was taken out of his hands (in no small part to the fact that OSU was falling behind quickly) and "shortening the game" - at least in retrospect - was probably a good idea. I'm not sure "putting the ball in Smith's hands" was a mistake, considering what he had accomplished at Ohio State up to that point, but you make a valid observation about him not having anyone to throw to. Still, Smith was "the man" and had bailed OSU out before... I'm sure that the coaches still considered him the best option to do it again.

They also set out that season to outscore teams, in part to help their young defense. I'm not excusing that decision, as I still groan about it, but that's another rationale for the decision.

It would have been nice to see him continue to get the football, if only to show a bit of the difference between those schools. OSU didn't have the tackles to handle UF's speed, but UF didn't appear to have the size to consistently slow Pittman down. 20 men in the box on 4th & 1 is a different category.

 

[ant80]

Army - I agree with your assertion about the Florida game. Pittman was having success before the ball was taken out of his hands (in no small part to the fact that OSU was falling behind quickly) and "shortening the game" - at least in retrospect - was probably a good idea. I'm not sure "putting the ball in Smith's hands" was a mistake, considering what he had accomplished at Ohio State up to that point, but you make a valid observation about him not having anyone to throw to. Still, Smith was "the man" and had bailed OSU out before... I'm sure that the coaches still considered him the best option to do it again.

As it was, the key play which indicated to me that the coaches were flailing that night was going for it on 4th down in OSU's own territory. Tressel punts that ball 100 times out of 100.. but didn't that time. I remember saying out loud "Oh, this is no good" even though I was reasonably sure at the time that Wells would get the half yard (which, of course, he did not) I think even Tress himself has remarked since that that was the play where he realized they didn't "want it enough"

I have to comment on the bolded part. TS hasn't been so hot until then. Pittman scores a TD, I think 28 yards. We stop Florida's O for the first time in the game, thanks in a large part, due to a couple of Florida offensive penalties. I was elated. I thought... TS isn't working, so the coaches are going to keep the ball on the ground. The score was then 14-21. I remember telling my friends, "We're going to run the ball down their throats. Florida can't stop the run." I REMEMBER the excitement as I prepared to cheer another Pittman handoff. What happened? Troy Smith pass incomplete. Troy Smith pass incomplete. Troy Smith pass incomplete. Punt. I also remember the halftime of that game at BW3's on Bethel. It was a cold January morning in Columbus, but I felt colder inside.

It didn't strike me at that time. But later, when I was torturing myself watching the game over, that's when it occurred to me that that was the point when the coaches blundered. The coaches didn't stop giving it to Pittman because we fell back. The coaches gave up on the run before it was justified.

 

[FF08]

I don't have data going back that far. I'd bet DBB does and I would bet even further that our defense has consistently ranked high in DYPP.

Thats neither here nor there however. Your equating bad offense to good defense and by that inferring that if we were better on offense the defense would suffer. That is patently false.

If the offense had a lot of TO's, low 3rd down conversion or sucked at scoring points then it would be hurting the defense. Scoring points on offense does not hurt the defense.

DYPP
2006 Tied for 15th with USC as in Southern Cal 4.6
2007 #1 3.6
2008 Tied with FL at #10 4.5

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I have to comment on the bolded part. TS hasn't been so hot until then. Pittman scores a TD, I think 28 yards. We stop Florida's O for the first time in the game, thanks in a large part, due to a couple of Florida offensive penalties. I was elated. I thought... TS isn't working, so the coaches are going to keep the ball on the ground. The score was then 14-21. I remember telling my friends, "We're going to run the ball down their throats. Florida can't stop the run." I REMEMBER the excitement as I prepared to cheer another Pittman handoff. What happened? Troy Smith pass incomplete. Troy Smith pass incomplete. Troy Smith pass incomplete. Punt. I also remember the halftime of that game at BW3's on Bethel. It was a cold January morning in Columbus, but I felt colder inside.

It didn't strike me at that time. But later, when I was torturing myself watching the game over, that's when it occurred to me that that was the point when the coaches blundered. The coaches didn't stop giving it to Pittman because we fell back. The coaches gave up on the run before it was justified.

Good point. Now that you mention it, I do recall having the sense that they abandoned the run too soon and it wasn't necessarily score related. Before Smith's fumble just before half (which resulted in a TD pushing the score to 34-14) the game was still just a 2 TD game (27-14)

 

[ArmyVet83]

I have to comment on the bolded part. TS hasn't been so hot until then. Pittman scores a TD, I think 28 yards. We stop Florida's O for the first time in the game, thanks in a large part, due to a couple of Florida offensive penalties. I was elated. I thought... TS isn't working, so the coaches are going to keep the ball on the ground. The score was then 14-21. I remember telling my friends, "We're going to run the ball down their throats. Florida can't stop the run." I REMEMBER the excitement as I prepared to cheer another Pittman handoff. What happened? Troy Smith pass incomplete. Troy Smith pass incomplete. Troy Smith pass incomplete. Punt. I also remember the halftime of that game at BW3's on Bethel. It was a cold January morning in Columbus, but I felt colder inside.

It didn't strike me at that time. But later, when I was torturing myself watching the game over, that's when it occurred to me that that was the point when the coaches blundered. The coaches didn't stop giving it to Pittman because we fell back. The coaches gave up on the run before it was justified.

ant80,

We must have a link because I was saying the exact same thing during the game. I'm not knocking Troy but with Ginn in the game it opened it up for the other receivers thus making Troy more effective in the passing game. With Ginn out of the game, the d-backs played up and shut down the receivers. But even with Ginn out of the game the Bucks could have run ALL night against the Gators. If the offense runs the ball more often it keeps the Gators offense on the sideline and their D in the game. To negate a fast defense, you run straight at them. That is Offense 101. And the o-line was blocking pretty good that night for the run. I will never understand why that game went the way it did. Oh well it's history. Hopefully at some point the coaches get it.

 

[Poe McKnoe]

Did I click on the 2006 National Championship Title Game Thread by mistake? I'm not sure one exists. Actually, January 8th 2007 has been completely striken from my memory. That day never happened. I've gone through the stages and got stuck on denial.

FWIW, they did abandon the run. It was a run when we should have passed, passed when we should have ran, and a zig when we should have zagged.

So I closing, I hope the 2009 offenses plans to average over 82 yards and 7 points per game.

 

[cbrian815]

Outscore other teams

They also set out that season to outscore teams, in part to help their young defense. I'm not excusing that decision, as I still groan about it, but that's another rationale for the decision.

It would have been nice to see him continue to get the football, if only to show a bit of the difference between those schools. OSU didn't have the tackles to handle UF's speed, but UF didn't appear to have the size to consistently slow Pittman down. 20 men in the box on 4th & 1 is a different category.

If thats the case I wish we had a young defense every year and JT decided he wanted to roll over people with his offense like he did in 2006. I can`t imagine this not being the mindset every year and every game. I do agree with the post though, and wonder why we seem to dominate on Defense in the games and statistics but rarely do we meet our goals of 250yrd running and 200 passing. Imho these goals should be much higher. I would like to see that yardage against ND in the 2005 BCS bowl game on a regular basis. I really hope we change our offensive mindset and get it rolling soon....it is so much more exciting to watch us execute and be dynamic on offense. We may even grab some more big time recruits with that 2006 offense. Go Bucks

 

[jwinslow]

If thats the case I wish we had a young defense every year and JT decided he wanted to roll over people with his offense like he did in 2006. I can`t imagine this not being the mindset every year and every game.

It dug them a hole they could not escape in that game, despite the fact that Pittman was able to pound it straight at them. They were too aggressive, and the game was over in the 2nd quarter.

I think JT can find a happy balance with control and diversity on offense. Improving the latter (a current weakness) could very well enhance his ability to control possession, field position, TOP, etc.

Imho these goals should be much higher.

MUCH higher than 450 yards of offense? That's a tremendous offensive performance.

I would like to see that yardage against ND in the 2005 BCS bowl game on a regular basis.

and I'd like a million dollars.

I really hope we change our offensive mindset and get it rolling soon....it is so much more exciting to watch us execute and be dynamic on offense. We may even grab some more big time recruits with that 2006 offense.

Other than TE, I don't see OSU's offense hurting them in recruiting... and it's led to some great talent at RB (Clarett, Maldanado, Beanie, Saine, Smith), not to mention some nice sleepers (Pittman, Boom). QB was a weak spot in the past, but Pryor & Miller are changing that (in terms of blue chip recruits, as Graham showed out well in FL).

 

[ant80]

I think a majority of the problems will be fixed if we fix the offensive line. But that's stating the obvious.

 

[1926Buckeyes]

but rarely do we meet our goals of 250yrd running and 200 passing. Imho these goals should be much higher. I would like to see that yardage against ND in the 2005 BCS bowl game on a regular basis. I really hope we change our offensive mindset and get it rolling soon....it is so much more exciting to watch us execute and be dynamic on offense.

Really? You really think that OSU is going to have 4-5 games a year where they put up 620 yards? Who do we have on our team, Griffin, Byars, Pace, Smith and Boston?

Listen, OSU should be doing better on offense, and I'm confident that they will be fairly good this year, although anyhting can happen. Still, lets not go overboard. Even USC's 2005 offense, which is probably among the top offenses of all time, didn't regularly put up 620 ypg, although they came close.

But I don't really care about offensive yards. OSU had more yards than LSU in the 08 championship, and had scoring opportunities against USC. I'm more worried about redzone execution and scoring. If OSU only averages 370ypg, but puts up 32ppg, that's pretty good for me. Few teams average over 450 a game.