2009 tOSU Offense Discussion

[Fungo Squiggly]

No offense but this duo, and the the way its being built up by people, reminds me more and more every day of Lydell Ross and Mo Hall. This is starting to feel like 2003 when we were hard at work convincing ourselves we weren't going to drop off that much from Mo C.

Anyone could see a huge talent difference bewteen Beanie and these two just like you could between Mo C and Ross/Hall. Lots of talk about the measurables of the two guys with little talk of their lack of vision which in the end seperates the great backs from the average. I know the party line is that Pryor and a different scheme will do the trick but I just have a hard time buying it.

I see a formula of average at best RB talent + suspect OL + true sophmore QB = big offensive problems (again).

Sorry, not trying to rip on the kids, just calling it as I see it. I think these guys are better than Ross/Hall but thats just the general vibe I'm starting to get.

Boom has done enough to prove to me that he can be a capable back, ala Wiley, Pearson, etc. Put up solid numbers with a decent YPC. I've seen enough vision, balance, and toughness that I'm not too awfully concerned with him at running back. If Herron were to get injured, my concern would spike immediately. I have not seen enough from Saine to feel comfortable with him as the #1 back.

 

[Poe McKnoe]

No offense but this duo, and the the way its being built up by people, reminds me more and more every day of Lydell Ross and Mo Hall.

Sorry, not trying to rip on the kids, just calling it as I see it. I think these guys are better than Ross/Hall but thats just the general vibe I'm starting to get.

Sorry, but I think you are ripping on them. It's unfair to compare Dan Herron and Brandon Saine to Lydell Ross and Mo Hall. Maybe after the season I'll agree with you, but you can base an argument on "the way its built up by people".

I think most people are excited to see what they can bring to the table and have already shown more than Ross/Hall in their early seasons. I'd compare Herron to Antonio Pittman more than Lydell Ross. The jury may be out on Saine and he could end up being another back like Mo Hall, but again, the jury is still out. There's a lot of teams that do really well without talents like Beanie Wells in the backfield.

I'm excited to see what they can do, without the unnecessary "I've heard this line before". Catch me midseason to see if I'm throwing my remote through my TV on Saturday afternoons, but until then I'll hope they'll be a dynamic RB duo with Martin and Berry thrown in once in a while.

 

[jwinslow]

Sorry, but these aren't the espn boards. You're going to have to back up that negative comparison with something of substance besides empty generalizations.

Clarett was great and osu stumbled without him.... And beanie was great and is now gone... Thus this replacement duo will be those two is not a very useful argument.


I don't see how Ross and Herron are comparable at all. Show me how they are.

That 'suspect ol' which cost Todd his position vs USC saw boom pick up good yardage on a top-3 defense. Boren is a BIG upgrade at lg when it comes to Boone, and jb has the potential to upgrade RT.

Boom has shown good vision, sets up his blockers well and gets up field quickly. He has a knack for slipping through traffic to pick up 3 yards where he should get 0, or an extra 6 after a 10 yard run. I haven't seen him running into his blockers or dancing in the backfield like lydell.

He's also been pretty consistent in his durability, other than one borderline cheapshot concussion. He'll never be beanie talent wise, but he might tap out less.

No offense but this duo, and the the way its being built up by people, reminds me more and more every day of Lydell Ross and Mo Hall. This is starting to feel like 2003 when we were hard at work convincing ourselves we weren't going to drop off that much from Mo C.

Anyone could see a huge talent difference bewteen Beanie and these two just like you could between Mo C and Ross/Hall. Lots of talk about the measurables of the two guys with little talk of their lack of vision which in the end seperates the great backs from the average. I know the party line is that Pryor and a different scheme will do the trick but I just have a hard time buying it.

I see a formula of average at best RB talent + suspect OL + true sophmore QB = big offensive problems (again).

Sorry, not trying to rip on the kids, just calling it as I see it. I think these guys are better than Ross/Hall but thats just the general vibe I'm starting to get.

 

[Jaxbuck]

The specific reason they give me a general sense? OK.

Herron/Ross comparison:
The "big" back even though I know Saine is bigger than Herron. Both had decent 1st year campaigns that led us to believe better days were ahead.

Ross 2002: 167 for 619 6TD 3.7 YPC
Herron 2008: 89/439 6TD 4.9 YPC

Like I said I think Herron is better and specifically has much better vision but who's to say thats not because we know the Ross story and have only 1 year of Herron? No one was criticizing Ross after his first year that I can recall.

Saine/Hall:
The scat back with the speed that seems to never get to be shown as they get older either due to scheme/injury/ineffectiveness. Both seem to be injured a lot and the vision question is already there for Saine.

Hall 2002
rushing:78/370 4TD 4.7 ypc
rec: 5/43 0TD 8.6 ypr

Saine 2008
rushing: 26/65 1TD 2.5 ypc
rec: 3/37 0TD 12.3 ypr

The Offensive line
Clearly the interior is shaping up well. Just as clearly the tackles are a huge question mark. I don't see how being dubious of a marked improvement, especially given the OL performance in general under JT, is that big of a stretch.

In 2003 we lost the clearly superior talent at RB. We had a couple of nice young backs with different skill sets coming back and we spent a lot of time, as all fanbases do, of convincing ourselves we would be ok. I recall a lot of that revolving around scheme and how we would employ their various skills better, not be in the "I" so much etc etc.

Fast forward to 2009 and I see a lot of potential similarities. Boom and Zoom aren't that far ahead of where the other two were at the same point in their careers. I'll believe we have a dynamically different offense scheme wise when I see it. Likewise on the big improvement of the OL.

Everyone thinks its an insult to compare them to Ross/Hall because we know how their careers turned out. I think the potential for a similar turn of events is in place and is worthy of discussion. Hopefully I'm dead wrong.

 

[OregonBuckeye]

Still not seeing the Herron/Ross comparisons one bit. Herron has shown more vision and toughness than I ever saw out of Ross.

 

[NFBuck]

Herron/Ross comparison:
The "big" back even though I know Saine is bigger than Herron. Both had decent 1st year campaigns that led us to believe better days were ahead.

Ross 2002: 167 for 619 6TD 3.7 YPC
Herron 2008: 89/439 6TD 4.9 YPC

Big difference there, Jax. Not to mention, I never saw Boom running into any offensive lineman. One of his strenghts is supposed to be his vision, a major weakness for Flydell. If anything, I see much more Pittman in Boom then Ross. When Pittman was given the job in '05, many people had the same Lydell Ross v2.0 fears.

The proof is in the pudding. Boom put up nice numbers behind the worst tOSU OL since, at least, 2004. 4.9 YPC is nothing to shake a stick at, and in tOSU's three biggest games (USC, scUM, UT) he went 24-161, 3. The OL has to be better this year. It just has too. I'm not sold on them being dominant, thugh like the potential, but another year's experience for the youngsters and adding a mean SOB like Boren can only help. And, not to be an asshole, but there was some addition by subtraction.

Now, if Boom goes down, all bets are off. I hope Saine can be a viable #2, but I'm skeptical. I don't think Berry is anywhere near ready to carry the load either.

 

[GoodLifeSean]

The key to me in this being a no debate is Krenzel vs. Pryor. Krenzel, while he could run, did not take an emphasis from the Defense like Pryor, if Krenzel got free it would be a few yards, Pryor and his reported 4.3 speed could take it all the way. This will create room.

 

[BayBuck]

Ross 2002: 167 for 619 6TD 3.7 YPC
Herron 2008: 89/439 6TD 4.9 YPC

As many TDs in half the carries, and 1/3 more yards per carry? I'll take that any season.

Saine 2008
rushing: 26/65 1TD 2.5 ypc
rec: 3/37 0TD 12.3 ypr

Sure, the injury stats are ugly, but 2007 was pretty good:
rushing: 60/267 2TD 4.5 ypc
rec: 12/160 1TD 13.3 ypr

Herron is simply a much more effective rusher taking over as the starter, and a healthy Saine brings a receiving element that none of the other three can offer. And this isn't just any old true soph QB handing off to them back there...
:osu:

 

[pnuts34]

The key to me in this being a no debate is Krenzel vs. Pryor. Krenzel, while he could run, did not take an emphasis from the Defense like Pryor, if Krenzel got free it would be a few yards, Pryor and his reported 4.3 speed could take it all the way. This will create room.

I think this is one of the most valid points! Herron and Saine can be so much more effective, because teams HAVE to fear Pryor! When you have 2 guys in the backfield that can kill you with their legs, and one that can kill u with his arm as well, that's just deadly! Thats what made Pat White and those WVU teams so dangerous. U never knew whether White would be passing it, because he could just as easily pull it down and run for 10-15yds or more, but u also had to plan for Slaton. We have a QB thats the size of a DE and can run like a DB. If you're an opposing DC, who do u plan for? Pryor, but then u forget that Boom can run it down your throat, and Saine will get the ball in stretches as well, and he's even more dangerous when u can split him out wide as well. The more reps the frosh get, Berry and Hall should be fine complemints by mid season and later just in case something happens to Saine.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Big difference there, Jax. Not to mention, I never saw Boom running into any offensive lineman. One of his strenghts is supposed to be his vision, a major weakness for Flydell. If anything, I see much more Pittman in Boom then Ross. When Pittman was given the job in '05, many people had the same Lydell Ross v2.0 fears.

I know. Thats why I said from the start I think Boom is better but to be honest with ourselves, at the same point in their careers no one was saying anything bad about Ross either.

Hopefully I, or anyone doubting him, is just as wrong about Herron as they were about Pittman.

Sure, the injury stats are ugly, but 2007 was pretty good:
rushing: 60/267 2TD 4.5 ypc
rec: 12/160 1TD 13.3 ypr

Herron is simply a much more effective rusher taking over as the starter, and a healthy Saine brings a receiving element that none of the other three can offer. And this isn't just any old true soph QB handing off to them back there...

Thats the part that gives me hope. I just hope an innefective run game and poor OL don't show up and put too much pressure on him no matter how good he may be.

I just like to paint a fair picture of the potential downside when the potential upside is getting all the play. As usual truth probably occurs somewhere in the middle.

 

[martinss01]

As demonstrated in all of the Buckeye losses over the last three years, it's hard to throw to a TE when your interior OL can't block speed rushers. Until the OL blocking scheme is fixed there won't be much variety in the passing game.

i would have liked to have seen a couple te screen passes. teams loaded up the box and then brought the house. they really didn't have a reason to be fearful of... well, anything not nicknamed beanie. so as long as they had someone watching him, there really wasn't a threat so long as they could get a decent rush.

 

[pnuts34]

I understand what you're saying about the OL play, but a stellar QB who can pass and throw makes the OL look great(i.e. Pat White, Vince Young, Mike Vick, Dennis Dixon, DJ Shockley, u get the point). None of these guys had exceptional line play, but they're legs made their O line, and more importantly their RBs more viable because the Defense didn't know who to go after first.

 

[jwinslow]

Herron/Ross comparison:
The "big" back even though I know Saine is bigger than Herron. Both had decent 1st year campaigns that led us to believe better days were ahead.

Ross 2002: 167 for 619 6TD 3.7 YPC
Herron 2008: 89/439 6TD 4.9 YPC

Like I said I think Herron is better and specifically has much better vision but who's to say thats not because we know the Ross story and have only 1 year of Herron? No one was criticizing Ross after his first year that I can recall.

You still haven't given me a comparison between the two players besides statistics (which aren't similar) and circumstances. How is Boom like Ross as a running back to justify this comparison and foreboding?

I'll believe we have a dynamically different offense scheme wise when I see it.

The offensive scheme has shifted considerably with each quarterback. I'm not sure why you're expecting Todd's offense this fall. How effective that playcalling is will be a whole different story, and an area where I'm waiting to see it first.

Likewise on the big improvement of the OL.

You're taking Rehring over Boren? I get waiting to see the tackles, but I think we could have desperately used Justin last year.

Everyone thinks its an insult to compare them to Ross/Hall because we know how their careers turned out.

I don't think you brought them up for positive reasons.

I think the potential for a similar turn of events is in place and is worthy of discussion. Hopefully I'm dead wrong.

Then show me where Boom shows the same flaws as Ross, or even similarities at all in their style, skillset, measurables, etc.

I just like to paint a fair picture of the potential downside when the potential upside is getting all the play. As usual truth probably occurs somewhere in the middle.

There are a lot of ways to temper people's expectations of Boom without expecting him to be another Lydell.

I think it would be pretty shocking to see Boom turn in multiple games like this (from the 03 season)

7-16 0 td (against SD ST?!!?!)
7-28 0 td Wisc
9-16 0 td Iowa
9-22 1 td Mich

 

[Jaxbuck]

You still haven't given me a comparison between the two players besides statistics (which aren't similar) and circumstances. How is Boom like Ross as a running back to justify this comparison and foreboding?

The similarity to me is at the same point in time you can see both guys are clearly not on the same level as a true feature back that just left. At the time I don't recall anyone being down on Ross, in fact the talk I recall is he could be the next great OSU tailback.

Flash forward and here we are again with a young back who's looked fine in spot duty so far but is now going to be be the man. He's clearly not at the elite level of the guy we just lost and I don't think its crazy to think the same seemingly inexplicable dropp off in production could happen to Herron as happened to Ross.

Then show me where Boom shows the same flaws as Ross, or even similarities at all in their style, skillset, measurables, etc.

No one that I can recall knew of Ross's flaws going into his second year either. All I can say is its visible to the naked eye that both weren't of that elite level of back as just left. No one paid attention to it in the case of Ross. I think its worth noting in the case of Herron.

There are a lot of ways to temper people's expectations of Boom without expecting him to be another Lydell.

If people are painting the extreme positive end why not at least bring up the extreme negative end? Its entirely possible.

I said in the first post I think Herron will be/is better than Ross but the situation seems similar to me.

I think it would be pretty shocking to see Boom turn in multiple games like this (from the 03 season)

7-16 0 td (against SD ST?!!?!)
7-28 0 td Wisc
9-16 0 td Iowa
9-22 1 td Mich

Agree but it was shocking to see Ross do it at the time as well.

Like I said initially I think Herron is better than Ross, it would be hard not to be, but I think the possibility exists that the OL and RB tandem combine to give us something as dissapointing as 2003 in the running game.

 

[NightmaresDad]

Regarding Boom, I have to say that I've happily been eating crow since the USC game, where he showed he could produce against top-flight competition.

When we first offered him, and I checked out his film, I was decidedly underwhelmed.

I was dead wrong. He shows exceptional vision, (which Ross lacked)cutting ability (which Saine lacks) and runs very hard, getting every inch out of each run.

Boom is not spectacular. He won't make your jaw drop all the time like Beanie did or the USC guys do. But he is brutally efficient. He is an OL's dream. They know that if they make even a small crease, Boom will find it and get through.

The only thing Boom has in common with Ross is that he will tear Indiana a new one. I have to agree with the comparisons to Pittman.

Mo Hall = Mo Wells, not Saine. Saine just needs to be able to make a cut without slowing down. That's the main huge difference between him and Boom. He just can't seem to change directions without chopping his steps and slowing way down. Saine is a straight-line beast that you would love to get out in the open.