2009 tOSU Offense Discussion

[Gatorubet]

Hey, at least we're not flapping our gums about the flu..

Yeah. Stupid comment. 10 minutes with Tebows would heal the flu.

What we shouldn't have are fans making excuses for not winning a national title every f-ing year. Exactly what's wrong with a team that's been to four straight BCS games and four straight conference titles? Why does anyone need to excuse the team as "young"? This is a premier program. Young players play because they come in ready to play. Pryor is ready. Duron Carter is ready. John Simon is ready. Brian Rolle is ready. When Beanie came in, he was ready. The Block O guys are ready.

If a dog's gonna bite, he'll bite as a pup. /johncooper

Does youth come into play? Sure, in terms of experience in close games, two minute drills, knowing the entire offense in week 1, etc. Youth can make a difference in an early season loss, but by the time the bowl game rolls around, there are no rookies.

As far as having a "young" team, OSU does lose as many or more players early to the NFL as any other program, so sometimes guys do have to step up a season early. That happens in a lot of places; Texas and USC are no strangers to early departures, and even Urban Meyer has probably failed to sweet talk an occasional player into staying for his senior year. Granted, OSU tends to be more encouraging to juniors than some other programs (see Carroll, Pete and Sanchez, Mark) and probably loses one or two more star players a year as a result.

If someone wants a team full of fourth and fifth year players as starters, they'd better start following the MAC.

All major programs have waves of young players coming through the system, and all college football teams are a work in progress. Even Florida, "the greatest team evar with 17th year seniors at every positions!!11!" has yet to look like, well, the greatest team ever. Give them five more weeks to get over the flu and they just might.

Back to my point -- there should be no "excuses" for this team. Winning conference titles every year and going to one of the very premier bowl games every year is not "rebuilding", it's reloading with incendiary rounds. It is only cable sports and blogger culture, with their 24 hour hole in the air needing filled with attention-grabbing rants that drives fans to bizarre reaches of logic to make "excuses" for one of the consistently best programs in the country.

I agree with all of that. FSU used to keep the seniors on the team for some reason I could never figure out. Bobbuh would convince em to stay, and they never seemed to start anyone but a Sr. at QB. I have to wonder if that keep 'em on the team thing going away, and the seeming baby QB after baby QB running the team is a big reason for their problems of late...I mean other than Bobby's senility.

 

[zincfinger]

What in your view is the reason for the "young team" thing, being that Tress has been around a while and the recruiting has been good?

I think you're overselling the concept. In Tressel's 9 years (counting this year), OSU has had probably 2 teams that starting the season were very experienced across the board ('03 and '08 - although both of those seasons had anomolies at key positions: TB in '03 and QB in '08). Probably 2 teams that were pretty inexperienced across the board ('04, and either '01 or '09). The rest were intermediate - some experienced units and some inexperienced units. And I think those percentages are pretty typical of what most teams experience.

 

[Gatorubet]

I think you're overselling the concept.

Actually, I'm deferring to you guys totally, as I cannot speak with any real knowledge of the depth of the Bucks over time. BigDaddy said that 07 and 09 were young, and I was just wondering why two of three were, given that statement and Tress' success as a recruiter over time.

We all have holes from time to time given a number of things, recruiting busts, transfers, disciplinary issues (not so much you guys) and untimely injuries to a certain position.

 

[BayBuck]

Hold on a minute guys, I'm not saying you AREN'T young this year, just saying that it seems to be the case two out of three years, and I heard it in 08, but that was more likely the "TP is young" stuff, which was undoubtedly true. And I wondered a bit about the issue, even if 08 is not a good fit.

Back to the youth issue, what is the reason for both 07 and 09 being a problem, as it were? Too much success in NFL early draft ranking? Abnormal number of injuries? Recruiting class not work out retention or skill wise?

I'm sure in a perfect world both Tress and Urban would want to reload with veteran players who had significant playing time the year before, even if in a supporting role. What in your view is the reason for the "young team" thing, being that Tress has been around a while and the recruiting has been good?

Both '07 and '09 followed seasons that lost large senior classes as well as several underclassmen at key positions (Ginn, Gonzo, Pittman, Beanie, Hartline, Washington), so that always results in a lot of new starters--the '07 class was so short on seniors that one of the captains was a junior (Laurinaitis) and another was a fullback, and '09 doesn't have a single permanent offensive captain for the same reason--but this year in particular we also have the recent stud recruiting classes filtering into the depth charts perhaps quicker than expected.

 

[jwinslow]

The nfl is a big problem. Osu not only produces at an incredible rate overall, but they are WR U and CB U when it comes to producing pros. This not only means a lot of great players leave early (Holmes, ginn, gonzalez, Ross, whitner, etc) but it creates a culture of going pro for those who aren't really coveted prospects (hartline, Washington, youboty).

Osu has recruited and developed rbs so well it has hurt them. Clarett was a top back as a frosh, and that talent (plus the off field issues) led to an early declaration with mike Williams.

Beanie was a potential first round pick after his soph season if he were eligible. Injuries kept him just out of the first when he declard early.

If osu doesn't land beanie, pityman probably doesn't go pro early. The culture and teammates contributed to this as well. He had started with troy, ginn, gonzalez, hall for years. Same thing with youboty declaring early with the rest of the starting secondary, salley, everett & whitner (who also went early and was a top-10 pick)

They also turn in some epic draft classes. 04 set a record for draft picks. In 06, they had 5 first rounders and lost virtually their entire defense. In 07, they lost all of their offensive stars minus a backup).

They also didn't recruit as well in 03 & 04. 03 was a disastrous class on paper when signed. It was a tiny, meager class. Then half of it never contributed, whether due to injury or grades/conduct based dismissal. To make it even worse, three of the rare gems in that class went pro early, one two years early. The secondary depth was killed by whitner and youboty leaving early. With those two back, smith and oneal are never starting, and osu doesn't try that soft zone to cover their flaws vs uf. They attack like they did against texas.

In addition to the awful 03 class, osu had a weak 04 class. Teddy saved that class, but otherwise there was a lot of busts and attrition, particularly in the secondary.

These were supposed to be the veteran foundation for the two nc years. Instead the overachieving youngsters from the 05 class anchored that defense. There was as much if not more contribution from the 06 class to the lsu game than the 03 & 04 classes combined.


Osu also could not play many backups in 02, 03, 04... and some of 05, because the games were largely close, defensive struggles. This the backups were not nearly as ready to step in as they are now.


If pryor doesn't leave early, they'll get a 4 year starter at qb, 4 years from boom, saine, hall and berry, 3-4 years from posey, Carter, sanzenbacher. The backups at dt, de, lb are very young and logging meaningful minutes.

One of the young dbs, if not multiple, from the last few classes will likely start 3 years.

 

[jwinslow]

To add to this, Tressel believes if you grade out as a first rounder, you should go pro. He encourages his kids to submit the paperwork even when they aren't planning to declare. You won't see JT throwing a temper tantrum like Petey (re: Sanchez) if Pryor goes early before he thinks he's ready.

He wants what's best for his kids, and he also wants kids who are committed to being here. It's a lot like his infamous method of telling kids to make sure that OSU is right for them, to think it over, talk with the parents after the trip, etc. It drives some recruitniks nuts, but it also results in very few decommitments or transfers down the road.

Both of these methods also earn the trust of the players and help them be 'all in' even without slogans from desperate athletic departments

 

[martinss01]

I'm not sure why the zone read option was shelved against USC, since it had some success last year. In the Navy game, however, the speed option appeared to work better.

i think it was shelved primarily because that seemed, at least to me, what usc was keying on. they seemed hell bent to make pryor win with his arm. certainly logical. from the formations i was seeing usc use defensively and how quickly they were flowing to the outside i personally didn't see much that would lead me to believe the read option would have been particularly effective.

The fullbacks are young and lack experience, and that seems to be part of the issue with the struggles of the power play ('Dave', to JT) this year. I also think that there have been times on that play where a cut to the outside would have worked but the RB didn't make that move. And more push in the middle of the line would obviously help, too.

zack boren has really struggled with run blocking thus far. which has surprised me a bit. the 3rd and 1 on the goal line against usc he wiffed completely. missed his guy and ended up landing on the goal line without actually hitting anyone. happens to the best of us, but after the navy game i was a little surprised to see him put in that situation. at least until he got his feet wet anyway. but then, at that point i suppose you could have said that about half our skill players :p.

Not to be pissy, but I've read on here that you were a "young" team every year from '07 until now. Not from you every year, Martins, so don't get me wrong, I am not pointing at you - but it seems to be a pattern. At some point the normal ebb and flow of losing players to graduation and/or the NFL has to be dealt with, and success achieved with what you have. See the '07 overachievers. But what you should not have is use of the "young team" excuse in 07, 08, and 09.

well, i wouldn't call us "young" in 08. at least we certainly shouldn't have been. that was an extremely veteran group that happened to have some very young players at key positions. again, it "shouldn't" have been that way and certainly wasn't supposed to be going into the season.

really this all started with our recruiting classes in 2001-2002. we had a ton of guys who transfered/didn't pan out over the next couple of years. but the most devastating thing is that our offense and defense peaked at different times. we lost 9 players to the nfl (thats drafted first day) in 05/06 on defense alone.

in 05 we were all defense no offense until almost the end of the year at which point we were arguably the best team in the nation. go back and read a few of the longhorn fans opinions of tOSU vrs usc after the nc game.

in 06 we were kind of like the texas tech of college football. all offense, no defense. i was one of the few saying to win the nc we would have to do so in a shootout. well... it was half a shootout..

06/07 we lost our entire offense. 07 we were picked to finish 3rd in our conference. not in the nation, in the big 10. the reason for that was the amount of youth on the team. not only did it take tOSU overachieving that year to reach the nc game, it took 6 top 5 teams shitting a brick in the final 3 weeks of the season for it to happen. that team had no business playing lsu. especially when you take a long hard look at the d. even with the long layoff tOSU was the walking wounded. lsu on the other hand was finally healthy. beanie was hurt and needed surgery. an already weak dline was short bodies and our best safety was on the sidelines in street clothes.

08 was "supposed" to be our year. we were finally mature on both sides of the ball. .... and then beanie got hurt. after the usc game we went into rebuild mode around pryor. again, we certainly weren't young in 08. but we definitely weren't experienced at a pair of positions you generally would prefer to be.

Back to the youth issue, what is the reason for both 07 and 09 being a problem, as it were? Too much success in NFL early draft ranking? Abnormal number of injuries? Recruiting class not work out retention or skill wise?

this thread is actually pretty enlightening:

http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/...uiting-explanation-osu-big-game-letdowns.html

anyway, heres a snippet of my post specifically talking about what could have been had players not left early and redshirts have been utilized in certain situations:

i realize a few of these guys declared a year early. but lets just assume for a minute that they didn't. just for the sake of argument imagine troy smith looking over at his three starting wr's ginn, gonzo, and holmes. pittman and beanie of course would still be sharing time in the backfield. theoretically our oline might have been filled with names like datish, downing, mangold, barton and sims.

the defense that was so gimpy we played zone no matter how much it got taken advantage of? jenkins plays in dime packages only if youboty and everett are still in the lineup. safety which was kept in place largely with duck tape looks a "tad" more solid with a couple of guys named nate salley and donte whitner. a pair of nobodies named hawk and carp might have found a way to earn starting positions at linebacker.

i bolded the names who could have had eligibility but either didn't utilize their redshirt or left early. obviously the argument could be made that for several of these guys we don't win a nc in 02 without their help. hawk and mangold specifically. but im trying to address our situation in 06 and what led to it rather than their direct impact on the 02 season.

if you honestly think we would have ran a weak zone against your gators in 06 with aj hawk and bobby carpenter at lb, ashton youboty and tyler everett at cb and nate salley and donte whitner at safty your nuts .

oh and loosing teddy on the opening kickoff is a tad less detrimental with a future super bowl mvp in the lineup :p.

the way our recruiting classes lined up and the attrition we had in 03 and 04. 07 being a rebuild year was a all but a given. 08 imo was unexpected and was more caused by a lack of improvement/lack of impact players rather than a lack of experience. in 08 beanie and pryor were our only "real" impact players.

in the end it all boils down to recruiting, player development and lining up talent properly. a handful of players can radically alter the abilities of a football team. as im very certain your aware.

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

This not only means a lot of great players leave early (Holmes, ginn, gonzalez, Ross, whitner, etc) but it creates a culture of going pro for those who aren't really coveted prospects (hartline, Washington, youboty).

Splitting hairs, but I'd put Derek Ross in the latter group rather than the former.

Whitner - 8th
Holmes - 25th
Ginn - 9th
Gonzo - 32nd

Ross - 75th
Youboty - 70th
Hartline - 108th
Washington - 102nd

 

[ant80]

in 05 we were all defense no offense until almost the end of the year at which point we were arguably the best team in the nation. go back and read a few of the longhorn fans opinions of tOSU vrs usc after the nc game.

Not to mention what Vince Young said.

 

[jwinslow]

Good call, I was thinking he was a 2nd rounder.

 

[muffler dragon]

That would be TULIP pedal..... :)

Sorry, couldn't resist calvinistbuck....

:osu:

:doh:

It's been a while since I studied it, and my Buddhist colleague has infiltrated my brain.

I appreciate the humor. Let's pray that the Buckeyes have been predestined to beat tsun, win the Big Ten, and win a several nation titles for many, many years.

Indeed.

No problem. :) I think it's cool that theology and football are completely compatible. Go Bucks!

LOL! Well...

 

[CalvinistBuck]

Your posts are fine. Talking about offensive strategy, formations, and red zone calls are real football discussion that is welcome here. The earlier post by someone else that I criticized had none of that.

I'm not sure why the zone read option was shelved against USC, since it had some success last year. In the Navy game, however, the speed option appeared to work better.

The fullbacks are young and lack experience, and that seems to be part of the issue with the struggles of the power play ('Dave', to JT) this year. I also think that there have been times on that play where a cut to the outside would have worked but the RB didn't make that move. And more push in the middle of the line would obviously help, too.

I thought we'd see more bootlegs against USC to buy Pryor time, but USC was protecting the edge. Based on USC's defensive alignment when we had Sanzo in the slot, I thought quick throws to the outside, such as bubble screens, seemed liked they would work.

But other than the interception and the failure to punch it in at the end of the quarter, the offense was functioning very well in the first quarter. Part of the slowdown should be credited to USC, who are known for making effective defensive adjustments.

Personally, I wasn't yelling for the QB sneak on first and goal at the USC game. (I said it in a normal tone of voice so the USC defense wouldn't hear me).

I think it's easy for some to fault play-calling when plays don't work (I'm not saying you're doing that, but it's a common complaint lately). But passing at the end of the second quarter backfired from a game management standpoint. And there were 2 of 3 passes called just before tOSU's last punt, so the calls weren't overly conservative then, either.

I'm responding in detail because of the nature of your posts.

But on the other hand, Big Ten play opens in a couple days and it's gotta be time to move on.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my posts. Your analysis in light of the USC game is pretty much what I've been thinking. I'm just a little frustrated because I thought our defense put us in a great position to win.

I was surprised we didn't to do more with the slot receivers. (I noticed in the game last week that we didn't cover the slot receiver on the right side on UT's first play. Sure enough, the QB recognized that and the reception netted 5 yards.) Likewise, I thought some bubble screens might be effective against USC.

It's been noted by several posters that TP missed multiple opportunites with Dane and Duron. If that was the case, why wasn't this addressed during the game when TP was on the sideline?

I know our fullbacks are young...so maybe we re-think how to best utilize "dave"?

I need to stop. You're right. Time to focus on Illinois and the Big Ten schedule. Perhaps a discussion of Coach Tressel's philosophy with respect to the offense would be a good topic for the off-season.

Again, thanks for being considerate.

 

[Poe McKnoe]

Not to mention what Vince Young said.

Even ESPN admitted that the Buckeyes were probably the best team in the nation at the end of the season.

Seriously. And I don't blame them.

The Buckeyes scored 10 in Happy Valley then proceeded to lay down 35, 41, 45, 40, 48, 25, and 34 points. Hopefully this year follows the trend.

 

[billmac91]

anyone else a bit concerned about the throws for touchdowns against Toledo?? Great that they were completed, and some great catches by the receivrs, but not the greatest reads. It's great our players made plays, but forcing throws into double coverage isn't always the best idea. Just not as confident as a lot are about the development of the offense....

 

[jlb1705]

anyone else a bit concerned about the throws for touchdowns against Toledo?? Great that they were completed, and some great catches by the receivrs, but not the greatest reads. It's great our players made plays, but forcing throws into double coverage isn't always the best idea. Just not as confident as a lot are about the development of the offense....

I am. I think Pryor had some success in spite of himself sometimes last week against a lousy defensive team. Having some success was a step in the right direction - he needs to take the next step though in these early Big Ten games.

I saw a great point in one of the articles from the Dispatch posted in another thread. In facing Illinois this week, it's the first time in college that Pryor will see film of himself going against that week's opponent. That's not entirely true since he did play some against USC last year, but since he came off the bench and didn't play much I think the point still stands. We'll get to see apples to apples for the most part how much Pryor has developed - and his ability to perform against a team that has seen him before will be telling. For better or worse we'll know how far along Pryor is after this week's game.