Zwick vs. Smith (official thread)

[BuckBackHome]

Just thought I would post a link and some parts of a nice breakdown from the O-Zone. Jeff Amey always provides a nice analysis after each game.

http://www.the-ozone.net/football/2005/MichiganState/bythenumbers.htm

"The reality is that Troy has trouble reading and dissecting zone defenses. Michigan and Iowa both played a lot of man coverages against the Buckeyes. Man to man defenses play right into Troy's strengths (defensive backs and some linebackers have their back to the QB and reciever matchups are easier to read). Against zone coverages, he seems unable to recognize where the holes in the defense are and is unable to anticipate when his receivers are going to come open. Couple that with his seeming unwillingness to pull the trigger on his passes unless he sees a receiver wide open, and you have a quarterback that performs like Troy did on Saturday.


One thing that has become clear over the past three games is that the main weapons of this offense going into this season, the wide receivers, have basically become a non-enitity on the field. Justin Zwick may not have all of the athletic skills that Troy Smith has, but he seemed to distribute the ball to all of the weapons on the field and has always seemed to read defenses fairly well. Let's not throw Troy under the bus yet, but let's hope that the Buckeyes don't keep beating their head against a wall when there is a possible solution on the bench if the opposing defenses are able to confuse Troy the same way Penn State did."

 

[Sdgobucks]

you sure about that? Tirico and the announcers kept going on and on about how well he did waiting in the pocket, almost to a fault a few times. His 100+ yds on the ground seemed to work out nicely when he did scramble. I think Smith threw one or two bad passes all game that day. And while their DL might be a little weak, that back seven is pretty strong, and he picked it apart.

You said it right there. Either QB does fine when they are given time. The problem is when the O-line goes up against even an AVERAGE D-line, both QB's are running for their lives. Our offensive line play is offensive, and I am getting very sick of it. Five years, and our offensive line has steadily regressed .... how unfortunate.

 

[martinss01]

you sure about that? Tirico and the announcers kept going on and on about how well he did waiting in the pocket, almost to a fault a few times.

positive. funny you mention that statement. it was made right after a play that 100% contradicted it. smith had all day to throw but pulled it down and ran for ~ 10yrds and a first. whats wrong with that you say? holmes was so wide open running across the middle it should have been illegal. smith breaks contain and gets the first down. however, if he throws to holmes, who was right in front of him and there was a perfect passing lane, all homles has to do is beat the safety in the open field and its 6. the closest defender to holmes was greenway who was chasing him. oddly enough, my money is on holmes in a sprint . smith did ALOT of that against iowa. not sure if he was locking onto receivers (i think this is it actually), feeling pressure that wasn't there, or just not going through his reads. but he missed a ton of receivers that game.

His 100+ yds on the ground seemed to work out nicely when he did scramble.

his 100+yrds is irrelivant. its about making good decisions with the ball. some of his scrambles were very good decisions. some were absolutely horrible even though the outcome was positive. just because the play doesn't end in a loss of yardage or a turnover doesn't mean it wasn't a failure. just because you get a first down doesn't mean it was a success.

I think Smith threw one or two bad passes all game that day. And while their DL might be a little weak, that back seven is pretty strong, and he picked it apart.

one of the very few intelligent things the announcers said all game was, "ohio state is just making iowa look slow!". if ts was truely picking them apart through the air we would have won by 50 even with the turnovers. thats not to say he sucked it up. personally i would have given him a passing grade for iowa. not by much, but he definitely showed progression from texas and sdsu. personally, i think his best play of the game was when he was flushed from the pocket and hit gonzo for a first down.

that's not entirely fair. 1) Zwick's great strides against OkState were matched by great strides by Lydell Ross. That should tell you a lot.

nothing in life is entirely fair. lydell ross' great strides were also matched by very good o line play. newsflash! lydell ross was not the worst player ever to see time at the tb position! and yes, i do have a funny feeling in my mouth after type that. yet it is still true. ross lacks vision, of any type really. but he is fast and strong. zone blocking IS NOT the proper type of scheme for lydell. my views on zwick without question take the opponent into consideration. but, more than anything else i rate a players development. what did you do wrong last week vrs what did you do wrong this week? okie st. nor miami (oh) are psu. but thats only part of the issue. nor is whether or not we lost any of those games. it absolutely infuriates me to no end when someone bases a players performance based upon the W/L category. but that is a rant for another post. smith had 2 full weeks to sit down and watch his film from iowa and learn from his mistakes. to see where he was missing his receivers downfield. to see what he needed to work on. he came out against psu and showed no progress in his decision making. oh and yes, i would have felt the same way had we magically won the game.

Zwick has improved, but he was not much better or worse than Smith vs. Texas, which has been his only test since returning.

see, this is where you and i will disagree to a very large degree. imo zwick was superior to smith by a wide margin. smith was horrible against texas. he really shouldn't have been put in that game. he clearly wasn't ready and i fault the coaching staff as much if not more than smith for having put him in that situation when they had to have known he wasn't ready. remember, i don't "really" hold texas or sdsu against smith. both were bad performances, but both were expected imo.

Smith came in rusty against Texas but had a few good plays, then got a little better (but turned the ball over) against SDSU, and then looked great against Iowa (other than the fumbles, and that type of thing can be addressed, hopefullY). Then we took a huge step back against PSU.

i don't feel as positive as you do, but we pretty much agree here. the turnovers are bad, but they are not my chief conscern. the problem i have with smith is that im not seeing that progression from game to game where he is getting better. its a 1 step forward, 2 steps back kind of thing. neither smith nor zwick are all world. god knows zwick has his own issues. the difference between the two in my mind as of today is this. smith has come in and hasn't shown that he is working closer and closer to his full potential. zwick on the other hand has played in ~3 games and all of them were steps up from the last. i can't speak for anyone else but i saw progression from zwick through each game.

I agree he needs to show a lot more progression and never play at the level of SDSU or PSU. But I think you're giving Zwick a lot of slack for throwing extremely short passes against poor D's.

every team we have played this year have given us the short pass. miami (oh) did, texas did, sdsu did, and iowa did (i need to watch the psu game a few more times before i can speak intelligently on that one). the difference is either by design or by error on the qb's part, we don't hit them when smith is in. the jury is still out in my mind as far as where the blame on this one lies. i think its a mix of both. it seems we are two different teams depending on the qb. when smith is in we are a qb option team that happens to line up in the spread. when zwick is in, we are actually a spread offense.

 

[Buckeyefan_6]

Let me first say that I have read this whole thread and I think so far everyones has done a good job of discussing-not yelling (one of the reasons this site is so cool!)

I think that there are many valid points over both qb's here as well. I kinda feel sorry for both of them as every game will be compared to a performance by the other. I think that both qb's are ok but could get better...

When I watch zwick he seems to be progressing over last year- but he still has bugs to work out. Also Imo, when he plays the sense that anything can happen is not their. Like someone has stated before though, jz hasn't played enough this year to make great qb comparisons.

When I watch smith play I see that he can be great, but he still has his bugs too-how many times has he fumbled this year? He has been lucky enough to get most back, but when will it cost them big time if it's not fixed soon?
I feel as some have stated that "he is more likely to hit a home run" but I also feel that in his career thus far he probably should have more Int's to his name- thankfully db's have dropped some and are in the dark as much as our wr's are as to where he's throwing to.

Overall I can't really complain much about our qb's. They both have more potential. We just happen to have 2 capable qb's at the same time in a competitive program with many fans- a program and fans who love to win and hate to lose.

I think we need to remember that as long as tress has been here our qb's haven't been stat hogs and our o-line has regressed. Our offense as a whole over his tenure has been basically anemic. They have been asked to do just enough while not turning over the ball. Hey thats tesselball- it works, but when the chains don't move or grind the clock we seem to have trouble.

sorry for the long read. :osu:

 

[syphonox]

I think we need a new coaching staff. Our talent level on offense is arguably on par with teams like USC. With smart play-calling, there is no reason why we shouldn't be putting up 40-50 pts. per game. We should be crushing everyone. There's no excuse for what is going on.

 

[osugrad21]

I think we need a new coaching staff. Our talent level on offense is arguably on par with teams like USC. With smart play-calling, there is no reason why we shouldn't be putting up 40-50 pts. per game. We should be crushing everyone. There's no excuse for what is going on.

Please enlighten me with some "smart" playcalling since it is such an abstract term.

 

[BuckPshrink]

Fire Tressel Start Zwick,:! Say it ain't so!!
Given that Barton may be out & the o-line may offer even less protection; Troy needs to work out the bugs & at times scramble out of a jam! Zwick has improved over last year but lacks the physical ability that Troy brings to every down. Further, Troy runs Lousy planned keepers & seems to react instinctively when the routes are covered & options are gone; save this last game & M. Vick would have struggled on that slip & slide!
All is not lost, stay the course, stay the course.:osu:

 

[syphonox]

Please enlighten me with some "smart" playcalling since it is such an abstract term.

uummm...ok. how about play-calling that SCORES POINTS! and ummm....MOVES THE BALL DOWN THE FIELD! Like I said...with our talent...there is no reason why this shouldn't be happening? Can't you guys see that?

 

[jwinslow]

yes we can. lots of people have said that. he's asking you to be specific about what types of plays you would like to see (some think we should become an power-I team again, since we move the ball somewaht in that formation).

----

On a sidenote, I guess I'm gonna have to make a video montage of the Texas game. People's memories are very short. Zwick had a stellar game throwing the ball, and was about 3 for 7 making a good play under pressure. Smith had a great first half (with one ugly near INT at the beginning, and nowhere to throw in the red zone). Then he wasn't asked to throw the ball hardly at all in the second.

 

[buckeyeboy]

Do those people claiming that we should go back to JZ seriously think that we would have beaten PSU with JZ in there instead of TS? I don't. Sure, JZ is arguably a better pure QB, but with the way the O line was playing, there was no time to throw the ball, and TS is a much better runner. In fact, if JZ's in there, I don't think we score a TD at all b/c our TD drive was (although there were a few passes), mostly running. I'm not saying that I think TS is better than JZ or otherwise, b/c frankly I don't know who's better -- both have looked good, and both have looked bad in their time here at OSU; I'm a little skeptical of anyone who claims that one is clearly better than the other b/c I've watched all the games, and I just don't see it. In the end, I don't know what to do. I guess I'd stick w/TS just b/c the offense is used to him being there and I don't want to start at square one with the QB carousel again this year.

 

[osugrad21]

uummm...ok. how about play-calling that SCORES POINTS! and ummm....MOVES THE BALL DOWN THE FIELD! Like I said...with our talent...there is no reason why this shouldn't be happening? Can't you guys see that?

Sure, but I just want to know what you recommend. What would you suggest?

Its easy to complain, bash, and whine...any monkey can do that. Hell, let's discuss some offense.

Break it down for me please.

 

[Golferdow01]

uummm...ok. how about play-calling that SCORES POINTS! and ummm....MOVES THE BALL DOWN THE FIELD! Like I said...with our talent...there is no reason why this shouldn't be happening? Can't you guys see that?

There is absolutely no theory or methodology behind these statements. Excuse the politics but you're bashing who is now in charge without recommending ways to fix the problem

 

[exhawg]

Do those people claiming that we should go back to JZ seriously think that we would have beaten PSU with JZ in there instead of TS? I don't. Sure, JZ is arguably a better pure QB, but with the way the O line was playing, there was no time to throw the ball, and TS is a much better runner. In fact, if JZ's in there, I don't think we score a TD at all b/c our TD drive was (although there were a few passes), mostly running. I'm not saying that I think TS is better than JZ or otherwise, b/c frankly I don't know who's better -- both have looked good, and both have looked bad in their time here at OSU; I'm a little skeptical of anyone who claims that one is clearly better than the other b/c I've watched all the games, and I just don't see it. In the end, I don't know what to do. I guess I'd stick w/TS just b/c the offense is used to him being there and I don't want to start at square one with the QB carousel again this year.

I don't know if Zwick wins the game, but so far this year he has seemed to see the blitz pretty well and get the ball off before the pressure gets to him. The WR's were open Smith just wasn't seeing or hitting them when he should. As pretty much everyone else has said Smith isn't well suited to the offense that JT is currently running. IMHO I would feel better with Zwick in this offense than Smith. We might as well put Smith, Pittman, and Ginn in the backfield and run triple option all day, that would be more productive that what we are doing.

 

[spotpass]

I don't know if Zwick wins the game, but so far this year he has seemed to see the blitz pretty well and get the ball off before the pressure gets to him. The WR's were open Smith just wasn't seeing or hitting them when he should. As pretty much everyone else has said Smith isn't well suited to the offense that JT is currently running. IMHO I would feel better with Zwick in this offense than Smith. We might as well put Smith, Pittman, and Ginn in the backfield and run triple option all day, that would be more productive that what we are doing.

:osu: breakout the 21st century Cornelius Green:)

 

[martinss01]

yes we can. lots of people have said that. he's asking you to be specific about what types of plays you would like to see (some think we should become an power-I team again, since we move the ball somewaht in that formation).

one example was a delayed handoff to pittman. qb dropped back, pittman showed that he was blocking, qb reached around from behind to hand him the ball. easy 20 yrds. great call period. id like to see us take more advantage of our speed. more slants. more quick hits to the wr's. bubble screens and the like. punish defenders for playing 10 yrds off. if the db's are going to spot our wr's 4 yrds per play... take it! suck em up so you can beat em deep. id really like to see some fake reverses. fake reverse quick hits to the fullback. fake reverses dropping the tb into the flat the wr vacated. fake reverse pass to the tight end maybe. reverses to someone other than ginn. fake sweep bubble screen pass to the opposite side might be fun. our wr's block well and have great speed. lets see how disciplined the d really is...

On a sidenote, I guess I'm gonna have to make a video montage of the Texas game. People's memories are very short. Zwick had a stellar game throwing the ball, and was about 3 for 7 making a good play under pressure. Smith had a great first half (with one ugly near INT at the beginning, and nowhere to throw in the red zone). Then he wasn't asked to throw the ball hardly at all in the second.

your probably talking to me on this one. i haven't watched the game that many times for obvious enough reasons. i think i have made it through only about 3 times or so. but i recall smith having 3 ugly near int's in that game. and thats in the very few attempts tressel gave him. it looked to me like tressel was afraid to let him throw. i also remember 2 or so fumbles. so thats 5 coulda been turnovers in half a game if im remembering correctly. but im willing to admit that my opinion of his performance in the texas game might be lacking as i haven't watched the game enough times nor in the mindset of grading out positions.