Which CB Will Replace Fox?

[jwinslow]

How many of those fumbles were by QB's or receivers?

I can think of many fumbles given up by Ross, Pittman, Joe, Smith (on designed runs, ie Purdue - Smith/Pittman). Plus we don't have a guy who has established himself as a reliable ballcarrier (pittman seemed a little smallish and had the ball stripped a lot last year) yet.

It didn't do much in the early season with Ginn either:) I listed my reasons why the offense will be effective next year without Ginn: O-line, experienced qb play, RB's, and deep receiver stables. I think that is my order. Which one in particular do you disagree with?

First off, Ginn was ineffective early cuz he couldn't get off the line (which ties back into my point in the last paragraph about strength at CB). The offense should be effective next year, but we do not know if it will. It did not have tons of success against a weak MSU d. UM & oOSU are deplorable on D and need offensive explosions to win games.

The other thing is that we do not know what will happen with our returning O. The OL might not be super effective immediately as they might try to work Boone or someone new in and he might struggle. We have no established 1000 yd RBs, just some guys we hope will do well. And while Hall and Lyons should become good receivers, they haven't reached that point yet. This offense is still largely untested, especially since we don't know who will be throwing the ball.

Without Ginn we have two good receivers (tho I don't know if Gonzo is a great WR if he's covered by the #2 CB, or if he's lined up in a 2 WR package), and a number of guys we are excited about as tOSU homers.

I went out on a limb and said he would be the best corner in football. I assume that isn't why I should check into drug rehab. My truely original contribution to this thread is that we will be ok on offense. Apperently an offensive statement.

No, that is PRECISELY the statement most of us find absurd. Ginn could become the best corner given his athletic ability, but the kid hasn't taken a single snap at this level and does not have a huge frame (like a Rolle, Shazor, etc) to know that he'll be able to handle bump-n-run coverage or prevent swim moves by WRs. Until he lines up at corner all season, proves his lighter weight is not a liability, and does not get burned much (i.e. EJ) then you cannot even call him tOSU's best corner, let alone the best one in teh nation. There are guys who have been solid corners for years coming back next year who deserve that hype long before Ginn. Yes Ginn probably has the best closing speed and athleticism, but he's untested.

 

[ManInBlack]

I quickly perused pages 8 through this one and I can say everyone is missing the point.

Jamario O'Neal will fill in beside Ashton to give the Bucks the best duo of CB's in a long time.

Jamario is this years version of Jr., something to behold. Wait and see.


Jamario is a stud and will allow Ginn, Jr. to stay on offense.

 

[daddyphatsacs]

I quickly perused pages 8 through this one and I can say everyone is missing the point.

Jamario O'Neal will fill in beside Ashton to give the Bucks the best duo of CB's in a long time.

Jamario is this years version of Jr., something to behold. Wait and see.


Jamario is a stud and will allow Ginn, Jr. to stay on offense.

Jamario may end next season that way, but I have a hard time seeing him start from game 1. It is very hard for a true Fr. corner to start, there is a huge learning curve from high school to college at corner. In HS, you can get away with relying on athletism, in college you rely on technique.

 

[martinss01]

Granted I hate the prevent defense. I still have to think that Snyder would have chosen a different scheme if he had different personel. The question is direct vs indirect causes. A shut down corner will keep us out of soft coverage and allow us to play an attacking defense.

ay was on the field in that game as i recall. last i checked he IS a shut down corner. your logic does not add up here chief... the only person missing was fox who is NOT a lock down corner to begin with. you do realize that you are argueing that we MUST replace a NON lock down corner, who was part of an nc winning team btw, with a lock down corner in order for us to have a chance at winning a nc... :tic:

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

This is a lot more fun. Instead of a rote reply of you're wrong and I'm write there is dialog.:tongue2:

Well, that's certainly nothing to "right" home about.

How many of those fumbles were by QB's or receivers? Those would still have to be credited to a turnover on passing.

First, how does the amount of fumbles by WR/QB support your argument that a solid running game will help cut down on turnovers? Second, I don't know who gave you the idea that a fumble by the QB or a WR is counted as a "turnover on passing"...where did you learn football?

Granted I hate the prevent defense. I still have to think that Snyder would have chosen a different scheme if he had different personel.

Uh, again if you watched the game, the personnel we had on the field in the second half of the Purdue game had totally shut the offense down, until Snyder for a reason known only to him decided to go soft coverage.

I listed my reasons why the offense will be effective next year without Ginn: O-line, experienced qb play, RB's, and deep receiver stables. I think that is my order. Which one in particular do you disagree with?

While the OL showed improvement at the end of the year, they still needed work (they were dominated by the Michigan DL during their two goal lines stands). Zwick has seven full games experience while Smith has five...that's not quite a full year's experience. The RBs remain a question...while I think Pittman played well, he's still somewhat an unknown while Haw hasn't even set foot on the field, along with a true freshman in Wells. Our WR corps is excellent, but they're no different than they were last year...the OL and QBs will play a big role as to how well the WRs will get to perform.

Based on our personel next year does anybody disagree that our offense without Ginn will be good?

The offense will be good, but it won't be near as effective as they are with Ginn on the field...he changes the entire complexion of the game.

 

[smithlabs]

There are guys who have been solid corners for years coming back next year who deserve that hype long before Ginn.

I ment no offense to Youboty. As a true OSU homer I think he is great. I wouldn't say he has been solid in college for years but the half year he played was great. Who is the other corner that you are talking about? Underwood? If, indeed, he is back that changes everything.

Originally Posted by smithlabs
This is a lot more fun. Instead of a rote reply of you're wrong and I'm write there is dialog.

Well, that's certainly nothing to "right" home about.

Mili, your mother dresses you funny and you are absolutly wrong. Wait a minute, I are an inganear. Funny stuff. I forgot to spell check the post two.

First, how does the amount of fumbles by WR/QB support your argument that a solid running game will help cut down on turnovers? Second, I don't know who gave you the idea that a fumble by the QB or a WR is counted as a "turnover on passing"...where did you learn football?

I was working under the primise that you put forward for assesing the risk of any given play. You count the number of turnovers caused by either a running play or a passing play. Your statement had an implication that all fumbles should be associated with running plays and all interceptions should be associated with passing plays. It just makes sense to consider all turnovers on passing plays, be them fumbles or intereceptions, as risks of passing. Perhaps the diction isn't correct but how else would you do it. Suppose your QB had a habit of holding the ball to long, not sensing pressure and getting the ball striped from the blind side. Would you consider that a weakness in the passing game or running game?

Uh, again if you watched the game, the personnel we had on the field in the second half of the Purdue game had totally shut the offense down, until Snyder for a reason known only to him decided to go soft coverage.

You have me there. This was the one game I didn't watch last year. My best friend from high school (Upper Arlington), who was also the best man from my wedding, was getting married that weekend so I drove up to Phoenix for the wedding. I listend to the game in the car and the last couple of minutes got very exciting. Traffic on US-60 allowed me to listen to the Buck's last scoring drive and we finally got to the wedding just as Orton took the field. I would have pushed the issue but the wedding march was already playing. As it was, I had to wait for the bride and groom to pass before I took my seat. Now, like Weimar Germany, I know we lost but it doesn't seem real. The defense I was hearing was stopping Purdue cold. The final two minutes I just don't understand.

Our WR corps is excellent, but they're no different than they were last year

In college football, same players as last year is a good thing. You make some good points about weakness in the O-line, late in the season. I still hope that spring ball and fall practice show that the offense will be ok. Time will tell but I am hopefull coming into spring.

Smithlabs

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

You can try and debate until the cows come home, but it won't change the facts that:

1. Although the offense will be generally better this year, Ginn's presence makes it exponentially better than without him.

2. Ginn could very well be an excellent corner, but his impact is far greater on offense than on defense.

3. Thus, Ginn will not play corner, period. At most, he'll be a situational nickle/dime back, and I doubt even that.

 

[Carmen Ohio]

I doubt you'll even see Ginn play corner in the spring game.

 

[BrutusBobcat]

Mili, your best argument is about the effect Ginn has on opposing defenses. Whether he touches the ball or not, the opposing DC has to account for him. By SIMPLY BEING ON THE FIELD he changes the scheme we see, which opens up our offense. No matter how "predictable" Tressel may or may not be, TG2 is definitely NOT.

Even if he were the best CB that ever lived, he wouldn't have the same effect on opposing offenses. At most he takes away one WR, and while that can have an effect if the other team has a guy like Mike Williams or Larry Fitzgerald, it doesn't change their entire offense.

That right there sold me.

 

[martinss01]

I doubt you'll even see Ginn play corner in the spring game.

tressel is extremely loyal to his guys. ginn has been a very productive player, but more importantly. he's been a damn good upstanding young man in the way he has handled his success (from what i am aware of mind you). ginn wants to be a corner. for that reason, tressel will throw him a bone and (imo) allow him to play a few series at corner in the miami (oh) game or the game after texas assuming he does well with it in practice.

this is to prove to ginn jr. and sr. that he respects them and respects their desires. though he is going to tell ginn after the miami game, "your a damn fine cb and have a future there. but i need you full time at wr. i think that is where you are the best fit for this team. if situations change, i would love the opportunity to play you at cb. but for now atleast, i need you at wr".

i doubt tressel would ever permanentelly shut the door on a kid as obviously talented, and more importantly, just a damn good kid on something that they likely "can" do and want to do. its just a situation that while he "may" be the best there is at that position, there are ways he could help the team that far outweigh what his impact would be as a lock down cb.

summary: if ginn can play the cb position, he will get the shot to prove it. but he will never get a legit shot at the position so long as there are others who can hack it.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

martinss01: While Tressel is a great man as well as a great coach, he puts the needs of the team first and foremost over individual desires. He knows very well that Teddy Jr may be chomping at the bit to play some corner, but you can rest assured that Tressel has talked to both Jr and Sr as to where Teddy will be playing, and both Jr and Sr will accept that. Tressel will not risk injury to possibly the best overall player in the country just to "throw him a bone", especially when the game is probably already wrapped up score-wise and thus would be no need for Ginn to be on the field even on offense. Think about it...just how bad would it be if Ginn got hurt making a tackle playing corner when we were up on Miami 38-3 in the fourth quarter?

 

[Carmen Ohio]

ginn wants to be a corner..

Not to start a heated diatribe but has he actually said that? I haven't seen it. The only thing I've seen remotely resembling any "grumblings" was his father saying jokingly after one of the games that the coaches weren't working his son hard enough - he even laughed after he said it.

 

[martinss01]

martinss01: While Tressel is a great man as well as a great coach, he puts the needs of the team first and foremost over individual desires. He knows very well that Teddy Jr may be chomping at the bit to play some corner, but you can rest assured that Tressel has talked to both Jr and Sr as to where Teddy will be playing, and both Jr and Sr will accept that. Tressel will not risk injury to possibly the best overall player in the country just to "throw him a bone", especially when the game is probably already wrapped up score-wise and thus would be no need for Ginn to be on the field even on offense. Think about it...just how bad would it be if Ginn got hurt making a tackle playing corner when we were up on Miami 38-3 in the fourth quarter?

*shrug* wouldn't be the first time i was wrong. thats just my opinion of the most likely scenario in which ginn plays cb. i personally wouldn't have a problem with ginn getting a couple reps in a game at cb. yeah its a risk, but 4 or 5 plays in which only 1 actually goes his side isn't earth shattering.

your probably right and he won't play. but i wouldn't mind seeing it personally.

 

[smithlabs]

You can try and debate until the cows come home, but it won't change the facts that:

1. Although the offense will be generally better this year, Ginn's presence makes it exponentially better than without him.

2. Ginn could very well be an excellent corner, but his impact is far greater on offense than on defense.

3. Thus, Ginn will not play corner, period. At most, he'll be a situational nickle/dime back, and I doubt even that.

The format of spring conditioning seems to be players rotate with other players in the same position. In the figure 8 drill Smith chases Zwick, Hawk - Carpenter and Gonzo - Ginn. Either Ginn and Gonzo are both playing DB next year or Tressel has Ginn penciled in at WR. I tend to think the latter. You could very well be right here Mili.

Smithlabs

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

Either Ginn and Gonzo are both playing DB next year or Tressel has Ginn penciled in at WR. I tend to think the latter. You could very well be right here Mili.

I'll bet the house that Gonzo doesn't play DB. If any top-level WR should play DB, it would be Ginn because he'd be so good at it. The only thing that keeps Ginn from getting time at DB is the fact that he's ssssooooooo damn valuable at WR.

...thats just my opinion of the most likely scenario in which ginn plays cb. i personally wouldn't have a problem with ginn getting a couple reps in a game at cb...

Actually, I agree with you that the situation you laid out would be a very viable situation for him to get some "warm-up" reps at corner. I just think the risk, as little as it may be, would not justify the benefits and thus JT won't allow it. Say Ginn does indeed make that spectacular INT return for a TD that we all envision...so now the score is 45-10 vice 38-10. It would be great to see, but still not worth the risk of loosing him for a few games or maybe even the season.