Which CB Will Replace Fox?

[jimotis4heisman]

this conversation is little more than interesting to me...the people in the know, those who have seen/heard about practices are absent and the speculators are running rampid.

 

[Crayfish]

I saw on another site (yeah, that one) a poster bring up the idea of Ginn playing D only inside the 20. Upon thinking about this, I can see some merit in this idea...

He will have ample time to rest. In most instances, teams have to have sustain drives in order to get into the red zone. He will have time to rest from playing on O during that drive. Then, assuming the team scores any points at all, there is time during the kick (field goal or extra point) and the possible special teams kickoff for him to regain his breath before going back onto the field.

Less risk of injury. Looking at the risk versus reward of him playing D, this is the only time I can see where the risk is worth it. He would only have to play 10-20 plays a game on D. He would be rested when he did so. With a smaller field to play with, he would play tighter, decreasing the possiblility of a completion and the need for a tackle. However, if the reward is giving up 3 points versus 7 for this risk, or even getting a few turnovers the may normally not get because quarterbacks would have a difficult time adjusting to his added speed and quickness, it is well worth the risk.

Change the complexion of the game. Nothing changes the complexion of a game quicker than a red zone turnover, especially returned the other way for 6. That could be a 14 point swing and break the opposing teams will in the process. Then, when their tired offense goes back out, first and 10, eighty yards from the end zone, Ginn poses a few times for the photographers and then takes a seat and waits for his next opportunity.

I've alway been in the Mili school of thought, its just not worth the risk. But this idea does seem to have merit. I'm sure one of the other corners (or converted corners) will be just fine in most circumstances, they are just too talented not to. But Ginn on D during the most important circumstances with the two biggest allies for a defensive back, the sideline and the end line, coming into play, sounds like a good idea to me without risking much production on O.

Thoughts?

 

[brutus2002]

Crayfish that has some merit. Without Ginn on defense we are a top 5 defense IMO. WITH GINN PLAYING DEFENSE IN THE RED ZONE WE WILL HAVE THE #1 DEFENSE IN THE COUNTRY!!

I agree with Grad and Milli hes too unstoppable on offense and injuries caused by playing on defense are a concern.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

I'm shaking my head here in utter disbelief at the wide-eyed child-like reverence of Ginn at corner. Folks think that if he steps on the field inside the red zone that the opponents can't score and that his mere presence on the field then will shut down their offense. Please. Ginn was an excellent corner...in high school, against high school WRs. He hasn't proved squat on defense, while he has proved to be explosive at WR and absolutely all-world as a punt returner.

 

[stxbuck]

Maybe Ginn could play some when we go to a nickel or dime package, but to anyone who doubts whether or not he should be on O full time, all I can say is watch the MSU game from last year. If Ginn is not playing WR, we lose. Period.

 

[Misanthrope]

I gotta keep Ginn on offense, and special teams. The only role I might consider him for on defense is as a dime back in obvious passing situations. Allowing him to play a zone, read the QB and break on a pass could give him some shots at big plays on defense, but he's too valuable to use as a full-time CB. Besides, as Mili said, he hasn't even played CB in college.

 

[brutus2002]

If Chris Gamble can step on the field and play corner I'll put every dime I have that Ginn can. Ginn is not only a better athlete than Gamble IMO hes a natural corner.

Mili nobodies arguing that Ginn shouldn't be FULL-TIME OFFENSE. I think offense and Special Teams come first and defense a distant second.

We are just discussing an interesting and positive dillemma that faces the OSU coaches.

I think if we are undefeated going into AA that we should put Ginn opposite Youbooty as much as psssible on defense. If we have 2 lockdown corners we can pin our ears back and go after Henne. Braylon Edwards is not at Michigan to catch Hennes prayers that he throws up for grabs anymore. Avant and Breaston are good but they are not close to Edwards abilities despite what the wolverine think. IMO Michigans WR's are very overated considering they lost the best WR in the country going into next year.

If we have a CB emerge and is as good as youbotty forget about it!!! Ginn 100% on offense and don't worry about defense unless it's an emergency.

 

[Crayfish]

I'm shaking my head here in utter disbelief at the wide-eyed child-like reverence of Ginn at corner. Folks think that if he steps on the field inside the red zone that the opponents can't score and that his mere presence on the field then will shut down their offense. Please. Ginn was an excellent corner...in high school, against high school WRs. He hasn't proved squat on defense, while he has proved to be explosive at WR and absolutely all-world as a punt returner.

I agree with you Mili. My point was that the idea deserves being pursued. I'm not saying he is going to step in and dominate. In fact, part of what I was saying is that by playing him only when the field is short it cuts down on alot of what he would have to do. The deep pass is eliminated, the field is smaller and tighter, and its easier to give him help. It would be the best case scenario to showcase his cooridination and exceleration when the play is in front of him and it would give jump one more thing for defensive coordinators to think about when the gameplan, making taking a small amount of their attention away from other details. If he were to make a play, he is more likely than any athlete I've seen in quite some time to take it to the house, changing the landscape of a game. The risk is there but IF he is capable of playing tight man coverage and using his physical skill to make plays when those plays could be most valuable it is worth pursuing to see if he can cut it. Assuming it does very little to disrupt his play on the offensive side of the ball and on special teams. That was all my point was, not saying he should step onto the field and dominate.

Would you agree or do you see it as too risky to even pursue in practice, given the risk and rewards I've pointed out?

 

[BrutusBobcat]

I can't believe that I am doing this, but I am jumping camps. Mili has sold me.

First, let's deal with this Red Zone stuff. Great theory from a fatigue standpoint, but what's Ginn's edge in the RZ? Agility, maybe, but his speed is negated to a big degree by the short field. The nickel theory was a better one, except that we've typically played a safety at nickel, not a CB, and we have plenty of good safties. Right now I'd say we'll see Sirjo at nickel before TG2.

Next, other than Gamble getting beat at Wisky in '03, this team hasn't lost a game because of the defense (especially the passing defense) in a very long time. With the pressure we should deliver from our DL and LBs next year, the CBs will not be on the spot. We've also got some excellent safties back there as well. CB just isn't a spot of desperate need where you put your best athlete.

Finally, this team HAS lost games because of the inability of the offense to move the ball, maintain possession of the ball, and to score points. TG2's presence in the game and emergence has fixed that. Our defense rests and their defense gets worn out chasing him around the field. We keep the ball, get great field position, score points, then put the other team's offense in a box where we can tee off on their QB.

TG2 on offense has been the main ingredient in a blowout win over scUM and in a bowl game. Yeah, Smith had a great game and so did Zwick, but the difference between those games and earlier games was the way Teddy Ballgame was utilized.

I'm sold. I'm a believer. Ted Ginn Jr. is a wide receiver.

 

[Bestbuck36]

With all due respect, Ted Ginn at DB inside the red zone is the absolute worst place to put him in. Inside the 20 is when you want a tall, physical DB that can tackle. How far does a CB have to cover his man- 20 yards. That plays away from his best attribute-speed. In the red zone you get more slants and fades in a jump-ball type of situation. In that case a guy like Donte Whitner or Jamario Oneal is what I want. I don't want to see TedGinn out on a WR with the offense in a power I running a sweep at him down by the goal line!


If, and thats a big if, TGII played DB I would want it in a nickel or dime situation with him deep half. He can use his speed to his advantage and does not have to take on a full back or pulling guard to make a play.

All of these points are irrelevant to my point of view because I feel like Teddy should never play defense while at tOSU! He is too valuable on offense! Remember, Ted Ginn is not a player that has amazing potential, he is a proven commodity. He hasn't played his best football yet, scary as that might sound. If you could give Ted Ginn the ball every single play and him be 100%, wouldn't you have to do that?

 

[Carmen Ohio]

Guys... I think JT has made it abundantly clear through his actions last season that Ginn will be our playmaker on offense. If Ted plays defense and gets hurt or even hobbled it could be back to the days of "pray for a win" which happened through most of 2002, 03 and 04. After TG learned the system, the position and his role on this team he is among the most unstoppable offensive factors I have ever seen at Ohio State who makes us know we can win big on ANY given Saturday. This guy tied the Big Ten record for touchdowns on punt returns as a freshman! Every time he touched the ball we expected something special to happen and usually it did. Santonio is great, Tony is great, Roy is on the cusp and the young guys have all the skills to develop into greatness but TG is one of those special athletes who plays in his own world. If you're a coach you don't let anybody jeopardize that. He already has a target on his chest... how would any of you feel if he got the least bit dinged on an also-ran defensive stop that normalized his performance on offense. On that side of the ball he is more talented than Sanders, Woodson or Gamble... great defenders who also played offense who I shouldn't be comparing to Ginn because we haven't seen him play any college level defense yet. I have to remind you that OSU's defense also utilizes a great cover corner and a great boundary corner.... not two "pure" cover corners. That's why I think Ginn/Youboty will never happen. Likewise, if EJ does come back I'm not even sure he starts with Ashton. On that side you need a tackler who can run and make plays on the deep ball. Dustin Fox will never get the props he deserves from those who can't see the sum of the many parts that make a great defense. That begs the answer to part of the original question... who else do you got to?

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

...If he were to make a play, he is more likely than any athlete I've seen in quite some time to take it to the house, changing the landscape of a game. The risk is there but IF he is capable of playing tight man coverage and using his physical skill to make plays when those plays could be most valuable it is worth pursuing to see if he can cut it.

He already changes the landscape of the game on offense. There is absolutely nothing he can do on defense that would justify the risk of him getting wore out or even hurt on defense. The only time I would even consider bringing Ginn in on defense is in a nickle/dime set as a last-ditch stop gap when the opposing team is tearing up our defense passing. Other than that, he never sees the field on defense.

 

[Carmen Ohio]

Does anybody know exactly why EJ was suspended... I haven't seen anything.

 

[smithlabs]

No offense without Ginn- hogwash. What we needed last year was an experienced QB and a better O-line. At the end of the season we had that and the offense got rolling. Of course Ginn is a great receiver and he helped the offense in a time of need. I believe that time has passed and the offense will be productive this year with or without Ginn. If I am right then Ginn is not needed on offense and should switch to defense. If I am wrong then we will need Ginn to bail us out on offense this year as well and there is no way in hell we can risk him on D. I haven't seen any posts to the contrary. I guess some people watch too much ESPN and don't believe that OSU has an "O" in it. Since this is February, my Scarlett colored glasses are hard to knock off. I my mind we win the NC and we win it with style. I have been looking forward to 2005 since before I knew that Ginn was coming to Ohio State. This is our year. 4 Road games and a experienced QB. I was also planning on Clarrett's senior season but that ship has sailed.:!

As for special teams I want TGII to learn how to pooch kick as well as kick returns. I liked the Qb pooch kicking and setting up the potential fake play that we ran a couple of times last year. Not only could TGII pickup the first down on the fake he could take it to the house. I bet he wouldn't make a half bad punt either.

I think offense and Special Teams come first and defense a distant second.

You dare post that so close to Woody's birthday:) I think Tressel would say you are half right but no the offense part.

Smithlabs

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

smithlabs: First, who said "No offense without Ginn?" No one said that. However, to even imply that our offense was fine without Ginn is ludicrous...you really need to start watching games before making posts. Check our game-by-game offensive point production in our first 10 games:

Cincinnati: 27 points, only 17 through 3rd qtr
Marshall: 24 points, only 3 in the second half
NC State: 22 points
Northwestern: 20 of our 27 points (Holmes punt TD)
Wisconsin: 10 of our 17 points (Ginn punt TD)
Iowa: 7 points, not scoring until 2:19 left in game against their second team
Indiana: 30 points, with only 23 points in the first 55 minutes of play, including Ginn's phenomenal TD catch
Penn State: 7 of our 21 points (Ginn punt TD, Everett INT TD)
Michigan State: 25 of our 32 points (Ginn scores via run, pass, and punt...personally wins the game for us)
Purdue: 17 points

Up until The Game, the offense averaged exactly 300 yards per game, 108th in the country, while scoring under 19 points per game. Danielson said the offense had been morbid, and his was right. You say, "What we needed last year was an experienced QB and a better O-line. At the end of the season we had that and the offense got rolling." That's only partially true. Ginn's presence during The Game and the Alamo Bowl were still crucial. Ginn's second-half punt TD delayed any Michigan momentum, and he also made several big receptions setting up scores. Plus, his being on the field kept Michigan from doubling up on Holmes, who had a great game. And in the Alamo Bowl, Okie State's sole focus was on Ginn, allowing our offense to do thing it would've otherwise not been able to do as well. Even then, Ginn was still dominant, with a rushing TD from the single-wing and an electrifying 42-yard run, not to mention that Okie State couldn't punt for squat because they kept kicking it away from him or even out of bounds.

Ginn makes an undeniable difference on offense.