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What's Wrong With the 2013 Defense?

What's Wrong With the 2013 Defense?

  • Talent / Players

    Votes: 29 11.8%
  • Scheme / Coaching

    Votes: 127 51.8%
  • Both are substandard

    Votes: 71 29.0%
  • Neither - B1G offenses are unstoppable

    Votes: 10 4.1%
  • I don't care - just fire Fickell!

    Votes: 8 3.3%

  • Total voters
    245
Fair enough. I don't pretend to be more knowledgeable than the staff. I'm happy to let others debate who - if anyone - should be replaced. Truthfully, I'm not keen to see anyone fired now or anytime soon.
I simply got the impression you're trying to lay all the blame on the secondary, when it seems to me there's plenty of blame to go around.
 
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On one hand, an Iowa 265 pound TE is faster than our entire secondary. That's just pathetic. We are SLOOOOOOOOOW on defense. But, on the other hand, rushing 3 and dropping 8 back into a soft zone coverage is plain stupid. I voted for coaches/schemes. But, there's a strong argument for both are substandard.
 
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You mean like eli apple, cam burrows, vonn bell, gareon conley, jayme thompson, chris worley, damon webb, malik hooker, possibly marshon lattimore, Erick smith and mike rogers or juju smith? Its not like the coaches aren't trying... but it'll take a few years to know if they pan out
I agree with this, unfortunately there are very few healthy DBs and LBs left from the 2010, and 2011 recruiting classes.
 
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This is quick and dirty, but I count 30 guys who left with eligibility remaining (this doesn't include Hankins or 2009 signees who were booted but finished in 2012 like Newsome/Carter).

Defensive players lost: 19
Offensive players lost: 11

4-5*s (Scout.com) lost on defense: 11
Avg positional ranking for those eleven: ~12.5

4-5*s (Scout.com) lost on offense: 5
Avg positional ranking for those five: ~20


Here are the departed 30; 4-5*s in bold:
QB10 Taylor Graham (Starter at Hawai'i)

RB09 Jaamal Berry (Leading rusher at Murray State)

WR09 James Jackson (Wayne State to ?)
WR10 James Louis (FIU)
WR10 T.Y. Williams (?)
WR10 Verlon Reed (starting QB at Findlay)
WR12 Ricquan Southward (?)
TE12 Blake Thomas (med DQ)

OL09 Sam Longo (two year starter at Cinci)
OL11 Brian Bobek (Minnesota)
OL12 Joey O'Connor (will be eligible in 2014 at Colorado State)

DL09 Adam Bellamy (retired)
DL09 Melvin Fellows (med DQ)
DL11 Kenny Hayes (Toledo to ?)
DL12 Se'von Pittman (will be eligible in 2014 at Akron)

LB09 Jordan Whiting (Louisville to ?)
LB09 Dorian Bell (All-American at Duke Duquesne)
LB10 Jamel Turner (shot; in the rotation at Akron as a RSo)
LB10 David Durham (starting DE at Pitt)
LB10 Scott McVey (med DQ)
LB11 Conner Crowell (med DQ)
LB12 David Perkins (leads Illinois State in sacks as a SO)
LB12 Luke Roberts (transfer to Harvard)

DB09 Jamie Wood (med DQ)
DB09 Dominic Clarke (two year spot-starter at Illinois State)
DB10 Adam Griffin (med DQ)
DB10 Chad Hagan (med DQ)
DB11 Jeremy Cash (leads Duke in tackles as a RSo)
DB11 Peewee Gambrell (?)
DB12 Najee Murray (will be eligible in 2014 at Kent State)

Bell, Cash and McVey hurt the most in my opinion...those first two would've had fun running with their HS mates (Bell with Pitt Brown and Cash with Shazier).
 
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Here are my answers to your questions..

1. By now I think those extra practices mean nothing. That would have been more beneficial in the spring, summer and to a lesser extent the beginning of the season, with this one exception, with the extra practices and the bowl game "perhaps" they would have had more of a chance to evaluate talent and change the emphasis on recruiting certain positions.

2. I don't like the co-defensive coordinators concept. So does Fickle run the gameplan for the line and linebackers and Wither's for the secondary? If that is the case, the plans are not synching very well. We know that Fickell was brought up through Jim Haycock's bend but don't break mindset, but he played for Fred Pagac on the Defensive side and Pagac ran an attacking style of defense (the creator of the Silver Bullets). You would think he would remember some of that. I know Vrabel does and truth be told I am sure that is how he would like the game played. Myers wants more of an aggressive attacking style of defense and so far the defense we are watching has not been very aggressive. I have a feeling something is going to change.

3. Why yes.. Yes there is. If you want the silver bullets back. Bring back the man who coached them.. Fred Pagac. I loved watching his defenses. Some of the best defenses we have ever watched in my generation were ran by him.
Who is this Myers guy I keep reading about? I don't remember anybody named Haycock either.
 
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Who is this Myers guy I keep reading about? I don't remember anybody named Haycock either.
Anyone who would rather pick apart spelling names instead of discussing the points I actually made.. screw it.. I won't post anymore.. worthless spelling nazis.

I hadn't had the need to ignore someone on this site until today.. now Wadcutter has started that list.
 
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Here's a list of the 38 current Buckeye players who were recruited to play defense, and how I would rate them as of today (star, hit, miss, bust, unknown):

Class of 2009
C.J. Barnett............hit
Pittsburgh Brown........miss

Class of 2010
DL Darryl Baldwin.......bust (moved to OL)
DB Christian Bryant.....hit
DL J.T. Moore...........bust (moved to TE)
CB Bradley Roby.........star

Class of 2011
DL Michael Bennett......hit
DL Chase Farris.........miss
LB Curtis Grant.........miss
CB Doran Grant..........hit
DT Joel Hale............hit
DE Steve Miller.........miss
LB Ryan Shazier.........star
DB Ron Tanner...........miss

Class of 2012
DB Devan Bogard.........unknown
DE Jamal Marcus.........hit
LB Joshua Perry.........miss
DB Tyvis Powell.........unknown
CB Armani Reeves........miss
DT Tommy Schutt.........hit
DE Noah Spence..........star
DL Adolphus Washington..hit
LB Camren Williams......miss

Class of 2013
DB Eli Apple............unknown
DB Vonn Bell............unknown
DL Joey Bosa............star
DB Cam Burrows..........unknown
DB Gareon Conley........unknown
DT Michael Hill.........unknown
LB Trey Johnson.........unknown
DB Darron Lee...........unknown
DE Tyquan Lewis.........unknown
LB Mike Mitchell........unknown
DT Donovan Munger.......unknown
DT Billy Price..........unknown
DE Tracy Sprinkle.......unknown
DB Jayme Thompson.......unknown
LB Chris Worley.........unknown

Stars.......4
Hits........8
Misses......8
Busts.......2
Unknowns...16

So there are a lot of young, inexperienced players on defense who have not yet had a significant chance to play, and many of the older players have not reached their potential. Note that there are only two fourth-year and two fifth-year players on defense.

Of the "star" players, Bradley Roby has severely underperformed this season after an All American campaign in 2012. I have Joey Bosa ranked in this category, but clearly his best days are still ahead of him. Ryan Shazier and Noah Spence have both performed very well, but neither has provided enough impact plays this season.

Of the "hits", C.J. Barnett makes the list primarily because he is a multi-year starter; his erratic play could easily land him in the "miss" column. Christian Bryant's career is over due to a season-ending injury. Of the remaining payers (Michael Bennett, Doran Grant, Joel Hale, Jamal Marcus, Tommy Schutt, and Adolphus Washington), none has shown "star" potential to this point, although Marcus, Schutt, and Washington still have plenty of time to develop. Note that former offensive lineman Chris Carter would rate a surprising "hit".

Of the "misses", Curtis Grant is the most disappointing, not only because of his immense potential coming out of high school, but also because a solid middle linebacker could really shore up this defense. Joshua Perry has also been a disappointment, and he will need to improve greatly in order to remain in the rotation next season. Steve Miller has provided some valuable minutes at defensive end, but there is almost no chance that he will ever be able to supplant younger, better players like Spence, Washington, Marcus, and Bosa.

The "bust" category is misleading, since the vast majority of the busts are no longer with the team. The following 20 players would still have eligibility, but left the team due to injury, discipline, or transfer:

Class of 2009
LB Dorian Bell
CB Dominic Clarke
DL Melvin Fellows
LB Jonathan Newsome
LB Jordan Whiting
DB Jamie Wood

Class of 2010
LB David Durham
DB Adam Griffin
DB Chad Hagan
LB Scott McVey
DE Jamel Turner

Class of 2011
DB Jeremy Cash
LB Connor Crowell
DB DerJuan Gambrell
DE Kenny Hayes
LB Ejuan Price

Class of 2012
DB Najee Murray
LB David Perkins
DL Se'Von Pittman
LB Luke Roberts

Although few of the "busts" listed above would have seen significant minutes anyway, Dominic Clarke proved in his brief tenure that he could provide valuable depth at cornerback, and Melvin Fellows, Scott McVey, and Jamel Turner were all very highly rated prospects who never saw the field due to injuries. Safety Jeremy Cash transferred to Duke in the midst of the TatGate scandal, and he now leads the Blue Devils with 66 tackles, to go along with 7.5 TFL's, 2 interceptions, and 2 forced fumbles.

So, bottom line, I'm voting for "talent" - too few stars, too many busts, not enough time for the young talent to emerge.
 
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Jordan Whiting would have started at LBer had he stayed.
A coaching turnover is a very disruptive thing. Most times you don't have "place holder" coaches in between the next head coach. But, we ended up with one of the two best coaches in college football. And he's led this team to a 19-0 start. All rather worth the wait of a "place holder" coach/lost season. And the issues we have now.
stepped in the shit and came out smelling like a Rose....Bowl.
 
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Lordjeffbuck, I like your list and agree with a bulk of it, but its hard to put a label on most of the 2012 class since they're not even done playing their 2nd years, so to me they all should be unknowns as well. Some have played better than others, but none to the point where they're huge factors, outside of spence, washington and schutt.
And though we all habe an infatuation with joey bosa, and he may be a future all American, he's not a star just yet, he's barely played a half of an entire college
season.
And taosman, what you stated about whiting could be true, but the same logic could be used for dorian bell and jeremy cash. And cash would be needed the most of the 3 at this point to shore up our putrid secondary.
 
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