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UCF Golden Knights (2017 National Champs....sort of)

Agreed. UCF just won all of the games they possibly could have. What else could they have done to get into the playoffs? I'm not saying that we should call them national champions, but what else could they have done to get into the playoffs?

I'd rather see undefeated teams like UCF last year get in, instead of teams that didn't win their conference. Sure, UCF probably doesn't win the whole thing, the way Alabama did. What are we afraid of? A blow-out? In 8 playoff games so far, 4 have been won by 20+ points, and 3 of those by 30+ points.

And who knows? UCF might just surprise someone.
Okay, but do you feel the same about the 8-4 champions of the Sun Belt Conference? Because Mike's proposal wasn't just to put undefeated mid-majors in the playoff, it was to put all mid-major conference champions in the playoff
 
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Okay, but do you feel the same about the 8-4 champions of the Sun Belt Conference? Because Mike's proposal wasn't just to put undefeated mid-majors in the playoff, it was to put all mid-major conference champions in the playoff
And that's the thing, isn't it. While I do agree with Mike to the extent that putting all conference champions in is "fair" (Not that he's used those terms) it's not what people are actually interested in watching. As I said, games like North Texas v. Clemson or Ohio State v. Toledo are laughers. Playing these games in December isn't going to add any intrigue. Life ain't fair, though. I am, thus, in favor of power 5 teams splitting off (say 64 teams, as @LordJeffBuck has proposed before) and playing for the title while the rest compete for some other title. As for the "what else could UCF have done" ... they could have joined a power 5 conference.. like Utah did. You see how many times Utah's ended up number 2 in the country since then, right? UCF still can, by the way... and if they do, good for them.
 
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And that's the thing, isn't it. While I do agree with Mike to the extent that putting all conference champions in is "fair" (Not that he's used those terms) it's not what people are actually interested in watching. As I said, games like North Texas v. Clemson or Ohio State v. Toledo are laughers. Playing these games in December isn't going to add any intrigue. Life ain't fair, though. I am, thus, in favor of power 5 teams splitting off (say 64 teams, as @LordJeffBuck has proposed before) and playing for the title while the rest compete for some other title. As for the "what else could UCF have done" ... they could have joined a power 5 conference.. like Utah did. You see how many times Utah's ended up number 2 in the country since then, right? UCF still can, by the way... and if they do, good for them.
I would argue that it would not be particularly "fair" to give an auto-bid to the post-season tournament to a G-5 conference champion, having an 8-4 record including losses to the only two P-5 opponents they played (one of them being Wake Forest), while denying a spot in the tournament to a team that finished second in a P-5 conference, having a 10-2 or 11-1 record and beating multiple P-5 opponents along the way. It seems to me that the only basis on which that would be fair is the arbitrary definition of "FBS" as including both P-5 and G-5 conferences, a view that ignores the substantial discrepancy between P-5 and G-5 conferences.

I'm not sure that conference champion auto-bids are the best idea for P-5 conferences with the current setup, especially with CCGs and the flaky outcomes they can produce. But auto-bids for G-5 conferences is a 10X bad idea, and not just in terms of tv ratings.
 
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Okay, but do you feel the same about the 8-4 champions of the Sun Belt Conference? Because Mike's proposal wasn't just to put undefeated mid-majors in the playoff, it was to put all mid-major conference champions in the playoff

No. I was careful to say "an undefeated champion". I have no problem if a 12-1 conference champion is left out of the playoffs.

I would argue that it would not be particularly "fair" to give an auto-bid to the post-season tournament to a G-5 conference champion, having an 8-4 record including losses to the only two P-5 opponents they played (one of them being Wake Forest), while denying a spot in the tournament to a team that finished second in a P-5 conference, having a 10-2 or 11-1 record and beating multiple P-5 opponents along the way. It seems to me that the only basis on which that would be fair is the arbitrary definition of "FBS" as including both P-5 and G-5 conferences, a view that ignores the substantial discrepancy between P-5 and G-5 conferences.

I'm not sure that conference champion auto-bids are the best idea for P-5 conferences with the current setup, especially with CCGs and the flaky outcomes they can produce. But auto-bids for G-5 conferences is a 10X bad idea, and not just in terms of tv ratings.

I hate the idea of auto-bids. Penn State should not have gotten into the playoffs over Ohio State in 2016, and I don't think Ohio State should have been in over Alabama (though I wish they were). I just don't know what else UCF could have done.

As for the "what else could UCF have done" ... they could have joined a power 5 conference.. like Utah did. You see how many times Utah's ended up number 2 in the country since then, right? UCF still can, by the way... and if they do, good for them.

Who have they turned down? Are they turning down SEC bids? ACC bids? I'm sure they'd jump at the possibility to join a P5 conference.
 
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That's a fair observation, and I admit it's not as easy as simply wanting to join a P5 conference. Still, they should be knocking on some doors or making some phone calls too, don't you agree?

Good point. Sitting around waiting for the prom queen to ask them out on a date isn't working. Perhaps UCF should be calling the prom queen.

But I guess my point is that for whatever reason, they AREN'T in a P5 conference. Suppose they have the best team in the country in 2018. Or take any G5 team - it doesn't have to be UCF. Just suppose that team is the best team in the country. They'd beat Alabama 49-14 IF they played them. There's the glitch - they don't play Alabama. They don't play anyone in the Top 25. I understand that we have to take strength of schedule into account. Going 13-0 in a P5 conference is much more impressive than 13-0 in a G5 conference. What could that 13-0 G5 team possibly do to get into the playoffs?

Maybe it all comes down to match-ups people want to see. Someone mentioned not wanting to see SEC champion vs. Sun Belt champion in December. And I don't blame you. But should the playoffs be about ratings? If that's the case, wouldn't Ohio State, Notre Dame, and Texas be in the playoffs every year?
 
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Good point. Sitting around waiting for the prom queen to ask them out on a date isn't working. Perhaps UCF should be calling the prom queen.

But I guess my point is that for whatever reason, they AREN'T in a P5 conference. Suppose they have the best team in the country in 2018. Or take any G5 team - it doesn't have to be UCF. Just suppose that team is the best team in the country. They'd beat Alabama 49-14 IF they played them. There's the glitch - they don't play Alabama. They don't play anyone in the Top 25. I understand that we have to take strength of schedule into account. Going 13-0 in a P5 conference is much more impressive than 13-0 in a G5 conference. What could that 13-0 G5 team possibly do to get into the playoffs?

Maybe it all comes down to match-ups people want to see. Someone mentioned not wanting to see SEC champion vs. Sun Belt champion in December. And I don't blame you. But should the playoffs be about ratings? If that's the case, wouldn't Ohio State, Notre Dame, and Texas be in the playoffs every year?
Your second paragraph posits a team from G-5 that is clearly the best team in the country. I have to believe this would be evident to the committee and they'd be invited to the 4 team playoff. In making this hypo you're subtly obfuscating the issue though, as UCF was not such a team last season.

It was me talking about the match-ups. I don't mean to imply that tv rating should drive the selections. What I mean is more simple - I've seen those games ... hundreds.. maybe thousands of them... over the years. And, while upsets can (and even do, on some levels) happen, the plain fact is this - Troy is not going to stay within 5 scores of a top rated team - be it Ohio State, Bama, Clemson... Fact is, teams like Bama, Clemson and Ohio State schedule teams like Troy as cup cake pre-season wins. The reason they do that is because... they always win those games And history backs that reality up at a very very very high, albeit not perfect (100%), percentage of the time. Ratings are just a reflection of the fact that those games stink on ice.
 
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What conference is going to pick up UCF, though? The SEC already has Florida, and the ACC has FSU and Miami? What does UCF bring to the table for sports viewership? The only P5 conference that would be remotely interested is the Big XII, and I do believe that UCF was actively trying to get their hat in the ring the last time serious talks were happening. The only other shot that UCF has is if the SEC would ever poach one of the ACC Florida schools. Even then, UCF's current alumni base and market location work against it. In another 20-30 years at their current enrollment numbers they might have a chance at having a decent alumni base, but Central Florida will always be a transplant market with fans who have ties to other schools. I really wanted to attend UCF when I moved down here, but even if I had they would have always been 2nd to Ohio State, and I suspect that's the case for a lot of students at UCF. That doesn't make for a strongly supportive alumni base.

In short, UCF has almost 0 credible chance at sniffing a P5 slot, and thus will never see the "National Championship." That's why I say troll on and tick off everyone claiming the 2017/18 title. Doesn't bother me at all.
 
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Your second paragraph posits a team from G-5 that is clearly the best team in the country. I have to believe this would be evident to the committee and they'd be invited to the 4 team playoff. In making this hypo you're subtly obfuscating the issue though, as UCF was not such a team last season.

First, before reading this thread a couple of weeks ago, I didn't even know UCF was undefeated last year. Which is kind of absurd because I followed the Alabama vs. Ohio State vs. USC debates a little. My point is that UCF never seemed to be in the debate, and that's absurd. So I don't know if they were "clearly" the better team in each of their games. It may have been a bunch of 7-3 wins against poop-town colleges, and they needed hail marys to win half of them. So whether UCF was clearly one of the top four teams is something I'm not arguing.

Second, I'll say that in order to be the best, you have to beat the best. Going back to my "I don't know shit about UCF" statement, I don't know who they beat. And I'm guessing that the teams that they beat were "not as good as we all thought they were - they lost to UCF, afterall." I guess my point is that we can't know whether UCF (or another G-5 team) is worthy unless they play someone of worth.

It was me talking about the match-ups. I don't mean to imply that tv rating should drive the selections. What I mean is more simple - I've seen those games ... hundreds.. maybe thousands of them... over the years. And, while upsets can (and even do, on some levels) happen, the plain fact is this - Troy is not going to stay within 5 scores of a top rated team - be it Ohio State, Bama, Clemson... Fact is, teams like Bama, Clemson and Ohio State schedule teams like Troy as cup cake pre-season wins. The reason they do that is because... they always win those games And history backs that reality up at a very very very high, albeit not perfect (100%), percentage of the time. Ratings are just a reflection of the fact that those games stink on ice.

No argument from me on any of that. But if UCF or Troy or Bowling Green or anyone wins all of their games, what else could they have done? I don't think we should keep them out on name alone.
 
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In hindsight, theyre clearly one of the best teams in a down year for FBS.
Neither Bama nor Georgia could beat Auburn 1st time around... those games werent close either.

I think UCF should claim SEC champion too... or at least SEC West
But they didnt need a 2nd chance... a 2nd chance that still fell short on agregate
 
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First, before reading this thread a couple of weeks ago, I didn't even know UCF was undefeated last year. Which is kind of absurd because I followed the Alabama vs. Ohio State vs. USC debates a little. My point is that UCF never seemed to be in the debate, and that's absurd. So I don't know if they were "clearly" the better team in each of their games. It may have been a bunch of 7-3 wins against poop-town colleges, and they needed hail marys to win half of them. So whether UCF was clearly one of the top four teams is something I'm not arguing.

Second, I'll say that in order to be the best, you have to beat the best. Going back to my "I don't know shit about UCF" statement, I don't know who they beat. And I'm guessing that the teams that they beat were "not as good as we all thought they were - they lost to UCF, afterall." I guess my point is that we can't know whether UCF (or another G-5 team) is worthy unless they play someone of worth.



No argument from me on any of that. But if UCF or Troy or Bowling Green or anyone wins all of their games, what else could they have done? I don't think we should keep them out on name alone.
UCF had a very successful season. Their competition was what it was - I don't think their schedule has been discounted by "they're not as good as we though, they lost to UCF after all" They played an otherwise normal G5 schedule. The problem, though, is that an otherwise normal G5 schedule is not all the tough. Which is to say, if Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson, Georgia... Probably USC and a few others.. if they had to run the same schedule UCF (or any G5 team plays) they'd be undefeated too. Which gets me to your last paragraph... not all undefeated seasons are equal. I don't remember a single person getting their panties in a bunch when Tulane went undefeated in 1998. And why? Because their name is Tulane? No. Because they played a schedule that Tennessee, Ohio State, Kansas State and Florida State would have all easily beat as well.

What more can they do? Split off and play for some other championship. It's not a matter of fault, I have to say... it's just the realities of the world we live in. Life aint fair. If an undefeated UCF or Bowling Green or New Mexico State gets left out of a 4 team play off, there isn't anything else they could have done. So? Life aint fair.
 
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I would argue that it would not be particularly "fair" to give an auto-bid to the post-season tournament to a G-5 conference champion, having an 8-4 record including losses to the only two P-5 opponents they played (one of them being Wake Forest), while denying a spot in the tournament to a team that finished second in a P-5 conference, having a 10-2 or 11-1 record and beating multiple P-5 opponents along the way. It seems to me that the only basis on which that would be fair is the arbitrary definition of "FBS" as including both P-5 and G-5 conferences, a view that ignores the substantial discrepancy between P-5 and G-5 conferences.

I'm not sure that conference champion auto-bids are the best idea for P-5 conferences with the current setup, especially with CCGs and the flaky outcomes they can produce. But auto-bids for G-5 conferences is a 10X bad idea, and not just in terms of tv ratings.
Ah but think of angst, strum und drang in Ann Arbor if Western Michigan had gone to the Playoffs while the Wolverines went to the Idaho Potato Bowl. That would have been fun to watch. Schadenfreud on steroids.
 
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UCF had a very successful season. Their competition was what it was - I don't think their schedule has been discounted by "they're not as good as we though, they lost to UCF after all" They played an otherwise normal G5 schedule. The problem, though, is that an otherwise normal G5 schedule is not all the tough. Which is to say, if Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson, Georgia... Probably USC and a few others.. if they had to run the same schedule UCF (or any G5 team plays) they'd be undefeated too. Which gets me to your last paragraph... not all undefeated seasons are equal. I don't remember a single person getting their panties in a bunch when Tulane went undefeated in 1998. And why? Because their name is Tulane? No. Because they played a schedule that Tennessee, Ohio State, Kansas State and Florida State would have all easily beat as well.

What more can they do? Split off and play for some other championship. It's not a matter of fault, I have to say... it's just the realities of the world we live in. Life aint fair. If an undefeated UCF or Bowling Green or New Mexico State gets left out of a 4 team play off, there isn't anything else they could have done. So? Life aint fair.
This is a point I've argued with a friend of mine who's a staunch CFB fan(as I'm more of an NFL fan), CFB will never have a TRUE NC, unless they truly expand the playoffs to 8-12 teams. The same teams will constantly be in the CFP(I believe that between Clemson, OSU, Bama and Oklahoma that's 70+% on representatives of the CFP). I can bet that almost every poster on this board can predict 2-3 of the 4 teams that will be in the CFP without a game being played. That is hardly parity and just allows the same teams to milk the system(especially since OSU set the precedent along with Bama that you don't need to win your conference to get in). Schools like UCF have little to no chance of ever getting in the CFP, unless they schedule their OOC games against the best of the best, but those teams won't schedule them for fear of losing and utter embarrassment. There won't be an SEC team or name brand ACC team(mainly Clemson) that will sniff putting UCF on their schedule, so they're stuck with beating a bigger team in a NY6 bowl and using it for relevance.
 
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This is a point I've argued with a friend of mine who's a staunch CFB fan(as I'm more of an NFL fan), CFB will never have a TRUE NC, unless they truly expand the playoffs to 8-12 teams. The same teams will constantly be in the CFP(I believe that between Clemson, OSU, Bama and Oklahoma that's 70+% on representatives of the CFP). I can bet that almost every poster on this board can predict 2-3 of the 4 teams that will be in the CFP without a game being played. That is hardly parity and just allows the same teams to milk the system(especially since OSU set the precedent along with Bama that you don't need to win your conference to get in). Schools like UCF have little to no chance of ever getting in the CFP, unless they schedule their OOC games against the best of the best, but those teams won't schedule them for fear of losing and utter embarrassment. There won't be an SEC team or name brand ACC team(mainly Clemson) that will sniff putting UCF on their schedule, so they're stuck with beating a bigger team in a NY6 bowl and using it for relevance.
So long as there are unbalanced schedules, there will not be a true champion... Although, in the ether, I'm not sure what constitutes a "true champion" Even in the NFL, (And I'm no NE fan) the year the Giants beat the Patriots... Let's be honest here, New England was the best team in the NFL by pretty much every measure... except they lost to a team they had already beaten .. their only loss in 20 games that year.. That loss was only meaningful because it came in February and not September. Which, just goes to my point about playoffs generally.. They're a fine way to crown a champion.. but, there's nothing inherently better about a playoff, and it is not some sort of magical quality a playoff possess that other ways of finding a champion do not.. that is to say, playoffs have their faults...
 
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So long as there are unbalanced schedules, there will not be a true champion... Although, in the ether, I'm not sure what constitutes a "true champion" Even in the NFL, (And I'm no NE fan) the year the Giants beat the Patriots... Let's be honest here, New England was the best team in the NFL by pretty much every measure... except they lost to a team they had already beaten .. their only loss in 20 games that year.. That loss was only meaningful because it came in February and not September. Which, just goes to my point about playoffs generally.. They're a fine way to crown a champion.. but, there's nothing inherently better about a playoff, and it is not some sort of magical quality a playoff possess that other ways of finding a champion do not.. that is to say, playoffs have their faults...
True, but if NE had lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs, no one would have said that they were the best team. Playoffs have their faults, but their sure better than just picking 2 teams and having them play, the more teams, it gives at least more of a balance to finding a "true" champion. But in CFB, you'll never see a New Mexico, UCF, Tulane, Colorado St., etc win in this current climate, at the end of the day, there's just too much money to be made. If an undefeated example of one of those teams and a one(or even 2) loss 2nd place finisher of the B1G, SEC or ACC were decided upon by the committee, $$$ would speak louder than that undefeated record(not to mention, beating up on UCONN, So. Miss, Tulane and Memphis doesn't impress voters)
 
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