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tOSU at Penn State, Oct. 31, 7:30 ET, ABC

Well, Fields is still the starting QB from last year, correct?. So naturally where we left off the season against a quality opponent will be used as a benchmark. So there's that. Meanwhile you said...



Only to follow up with...



So which is it? Fields is a better passer than Haskins now? And if so, are you only using the 1st two games of the season as your demonstration to show marked improvement from the Clemson game?

Last year, I would have taken Dwayne over Justin as a passer. This year I would not based on what we've seen. I dont understand why youre having a hard time with that.

And yes I clearly am, Justin didn't look this good throwing last year, even again mediocre teams. If you think you can only gauge improvement by playing elite teams than I don't know what to tell you, I just think that's asinine. Not to mention, how many teams like Clemson 19 did Dwayne have to play? I'd argue Dwayne never played a truly "elite" team at all.
 
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If you think you can only gauge improvement by playing elite teams than I don't know what to tell you

When you claim to be an elite team, that is EXACTLY how you gauge improvement, no?

How many teams like Clemson 19 did Dwayne have to play?



3, if you go by DVOA top 20 results. Though Clemson's secondary/defensive rankings got a great boost from a lack of quality QB play in their own conference.

edit: And I will make this clear - I'm only ASKING the question. I'm not definitive either way. I think healthy observance and review is always a good thing the morning after enjoying a road win.
 
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Penn State Post-Game Thoughts

1. With the 38-25 win, Ohio State now leads the series versus Penn State, 22-14 (.611 winning percentage), including 20-8 (.714 winning percentage) in Big Ten play. Ohio State has outscored Penn State 834 to 678 (23.2 to 18.8 on a per game basis). In Big Ten games, Ohio State has outscored Penn State 773 to 531 (27.6 to 19.0 on a per game basis).

2. A 13-point win against a pre-season top-10 team seems pretty impressive, but the game wasn't really that close. Ohio State settled for three FG attempts inside the 5-yard line, and missed two of them (one with an injured Blake Haubeil; one with his backup, walk-on Dominic DiMaccio). Penn State was clearly gifted a FG of their own when the clock malfunctioned (or something) at the end of the first half, and a second FG after a phantom roughing the passer call allowed them to convert a 3rd-and-12. If Ohio State makes their two short FG, and the refs don't gift Penn State six points, then your final score is 44-19. If Ohio State converts TDs in those goal-to-go situations, then the final score is 56-19. You get the idea.

3. Justin Fields had another Heisman-caliber performance. He was 28/34 (.824) for 318 yards, 4 TDs, and no interceptions.

4. If I have one quibble about Fields - or perhaps it is really a quibble about the Ohio State offense in general - it is this: The Buckeyes have a difficult time converting touchdowns inside the 5-yard line. Over the past four games with Fields at QB (Wisconsin and Clemson last season; Nebraska and Penn State this season), Ohio State has been at or inside the 5-yard line eleven times, with the following results: 4 TDs; 4 FGs; 2 missed FGs; and 1 fumble. Four touchdowns in eleven tries inside the 5-yard line is quite simply awful. Granted, Wisconsin, Clemson, and Penn State have solid defenses, and perhaps one or two of those FG attempts were dictated by the game situation, but the Buckeyes clearly have some major difficulties in scoring when the playing field gets compressed.

5. Chris Olave and Garrett Wilson are the best receiving duo in the country, and quite possibly in Buckeye history. For the second straight game, both receivers eclipsed the 100-yard mark, which has never happened before at Ohio State. Olave had 7 receptions for 120 yards and 2 touchdowns (26 yards; 49 yards), while Wilson had 11 receptions for 111 yards (no TDs) and added another 62 yards on a rush.

6. Jeremy Ruckert had a big game, at least by the standards of Buckeye tight ends, with 4 receptions for 25 yard and a pair of touchdowns. Luke Farrell (1 reception, 16 yards) and Jake Hausmann (1 reception, 13 yards) also made it onto the stat sheet. A big tight end can be a real asset in goal-to-go situations (see above), and Ruckert (or Farrell or Hausmann) could be the X-factor that finally allows Ohio State to become more efficient inside the 5-yard line.

7. The Buckeyes' tailback tandem of Master Teague (23 carries, 110 yards, 4.8 average, TD) and Trey Sermon (13 carries, 56 yards, 4.3 average) were somewhat better this week, but it's becoming apparent that Ohio State will not be able to win a close game against a top opponent by relying on its running game. It's Justin Fields or bust in 2020.

8. Q: How often does a defensive tackle lead the team in tackles? A: Basically never, but Tommy Togiai accomplished that rare feat last night. Togiai had seven tackles (4 solo, 3 assists) and added 3 sacks for 13 yards lost. Javonte Jean-Baptiste had a solo sack, and Zach Harrison (4 tackles, TFL) and Jonathon Cooper (5 tackles) combined for a fifth sack. After a rough game against Nebraska in week one, Cooper had a much better and more physical game against Penn State.

9. Marcus Hooker looked like his big brother on a 31-yard interception return that he almost took to the house. Hooker's near pick-six late in the 4th quarter pretty much clinched the game for Ohio State, although the Buckeyes certainly made things interesting by: (1) not scoring a touchdown inside the 5-yard line, and (2) subsequently missing the chip shot field goal. Hooker also added 6 tackles (5 solo, 1 assist) for the contest.

10. The Buckeye front seven were stout all night long, with 5 sacks, 2 additional TFLs, and surrendering just 44 yards rushing on 27 attempts (1.6 average, no TDs). After being torched recently by running quarterbacks (Trevor Lawrence, Adrian Martinez, Luke McCaffery), the defense did an especially nice job on Penn State QB Sean Clifford. Subtracting out the five sacks for minus 23 yards, Clifford had 13 rushes for just 28 yards (2.15 average) and a long run of 11 yards.

11. Where Clifford hurt the Buckeyes was in the passing game. Although Clifford's stats weren't great - 18 for 30 (.600) for 281 yards, 3 TDs, INT, 5 sacks - he made several big plays, including eight completions of 16+ yards. Clifford's biggest plays of the night were a 37-yard completion to Jahan Dotson to convert a 3rd-and-17, and a 21-yard TD to Dotson on the very next play to cut Ohio State's lead to 31-19. Those two plays kept the game fairly close and the final score almost respectable.

12. Turn back the clock to September 28, 2013. #4 Ohio State versus #23 Wisconsin. The Buckeyes win the game, 31-24, but Badger quarterback Joel Stave connects with wide receiver Jared Abbrederis 10 times for 207 yards and a touchdown, including receptions of 23, 33, 36, and 64 yards. Who was guarding the otherwise forgettable Abbrederis that evening? None other than Buckeye All American cornerback (and future first round draft pick) Bradley Roby. I've never seen a Buckeye corner get torched quite so badly as Roby that night, but Shaun Wade certainly entered the discussion with his "coverage" on Penn State's Jahan Dotson, who had 8 receptions for 144 yards and 3 touchdowns (14, 20, 21 yards). Sure, Dotson made some nice individual plays, but there were times when Wade simply looked overmatched and/or disinterested. Bradley Roby was able to rebound from his awful night back in 2013, so maybe Shaun Wade can do the same thing in 2020. If Wade can't be a lockdown corner going forward, then the Buckeye defense will have a difficult (if not impossible) time stopping the high-powered offenses that they hope to meet in the playoffs.

13. Remember how I said that the game wasn't really as close as the final score? Ohio State outgained Penn State 526 total yards to 325 total yards, and won the time of possession battle 37:01 to 22:59. In addition, Ohio State was 12 for 21 (.571) converting 3rd and 4th downs, while Penn State was just 3 for 10 (.300). Ohio State basically dominated the game everywhere but on the scoreboard.
You nailed point 4. My biggest bugaboo’s the number of plays run inside the 5 that don’t turn into TDs, and then settling for FGs/FG attempts.

Both Clemson and Penn State games were fast starts that could’ve turned demoralizing for the opposition had those FG attempts been 7; and the case with Clemson, were the difference between winning and losing all else being equal.
 
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You nailed point 4. My biggest bugaboo’s the number of plays run inside the 5 that don’t turn into TDs, and then settling for FGs/FG attempts.

Both Clemson and Penn State games were fast starts that could’ve turned demoralizing for the opposition had those FG attempts been 7; and the case with Clemson, were the difference between winning and losing all else being equal.

Reminds me of the famous Bill Parcells quote about the difference in winning vs losing in the NFL. “Are you kicking Field Goals or Extra Points”?
 
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When you claim to be an elite team, that is EXACTLY how you gauge improvement, no?





3, if you go by DVOA top 20 results. Though Clemson's secondary/defensive rankings got a great boost from a lack of quality QB play in their own conference.

edit: And I will make this clear - I'm only ASKING the question. I'm not definitive either way. I think healthy observance and review is always a good thing the morning after enjoying a road win.

Perhaps it was just a one week game plan but Fields only ran the ball 4 times last night vs 12 the week before against Corn. It looks like the coaching staff is progressively putting more faith in his arm. And why not? Those stats from 2 games are ridiculous.
 
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Neat. If this were true, Clemson would have been in our rear-view mirror.
Is this where we act like its 2019 and Justin's downfield passing is the same as last year?
What I'm referring to is eye movement, processing speed of his progressions, ball placement, throwing off pace, pocket footwork, etc etc. Completion percentage is about as poor of a metric as you could possibly throw out there, especially in the modern college game. But I appreciate you playing.
In Happy Valley:

'18 - 22/39 56% 270 yds 3 td 1 int
'20 - 28/34 82% 318 yds 4 td 0 int

In the final 9 minutes:

'18 - 06/08 75% 133 yds 2 td 0 int
'20 - 01/01 100% 12 yds 0 td 0 int

Before that comeback, Dwayne was 16/31 139 yds 1 td 1 int

I have no interest in excluding certain stats. They all count. Without them, it's a laugher. With them it becomes more competitive but still solidly in Justin's favor (despite being essentially shut down for that last period).

Justin is not perfect. He has better weapons than Dwayne, and does struggle with pocket footwork and how long he holds onto the ball, among other issues.

Dwayne was a flamethrower that covered for a bad defense. He also had two very good tailbacks, while Justin may not have any (largely health related).

Both are tremendous.
 
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When you claim to be an elite team, that is EXACTLY how you gauge improvement, no?





3, if you go by DVOA top 20 results. Though Clemson's secondary/defensive rankings got a great boost from a lack of quality QB play in their own conference.

I think we're just gonna disagree on the elite competition thing. You can absolutely gauge individual player improvement from games against decent opponents like Nebraska and Penn State, IMO.

Also I would argue the same thing applies to the Big Ten defenses Haskins faced. The second best quarterback in the Big ten in 2018 was Shea Patterson or Trace McSorley.

The DVOA citation is a nice find, but im not sure its helpful to your argument if you take a closer look at Football Outsiders DFEI rating (searched for DVOA, this was all I could find). Haskins three top 20 opponents all resulted in wins, but he was not good against Penn State, struggled to move the ball in the second half against Washington, and well Michigan...we all know that story. He only performed incredibly well against one of those teams (which was likely the team whose defensive stats were the most fraudulent).

Meanwhile Justin faced Clemson, who wasn't just the top 20 you mentioned, but #1 overall defensively. Also he faced, four other teams in the top 20 last year (Wisconsin, Penn State, Michigan, Cincy) and looked pretty damn good most of the time.

And that's more than fair, my apologies for toeing the line of being civil. Always nice having a real football conversation.
 
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"4. If I have one quibble about Fields - or perhaps it is really a quibble about the Ohio State offense in general - it is this: The Buckeyes have a difficult time converting touchdowns inside the 5-yard line. Over the past four games with Fields at QB (Wisconsin and Clemson last season; Nebraska and Penn State this season), Ohio State has been at or inside the 5-yard line eleven times, with the following results: 4 TDs; 4 FGs; 2 missed FGs; and 1 fumble. Four touchdowns in eleven tries inside the 5-yard line is quite simply awful. Granted, Wisconsin, Clemson, and Penn State have solid defenses, and perhaps one or two of those FG attempts were dictated by the game situation, but the Buckeyes clearly have some major difficulties in scoring when the playing field gets compressed." LJB

You nailed point 4. My biggest bugaboo’s the number of plays run inside the 5 that don’t turn into TDs, and then settling for FGs/FG attempts.

Both Clemson and Penn State games were fast starts that could’ve turned demoralizing for the opposition had those FG attempts been 7; and the case with Clemson, were the difference between winning and losing all else being equal.

First, that seems to me to be the best argument against the spread, the shotgun, and Day and Meyer. Yes, the spread can move the ball up and down the field and produce lightning in a heartbeat, but it seems to me to be less successful in the red zone, especially when playing teams of the caliber of Clemson and Alabama.

I would add to the argument that it also shows up when Oregon has to play someone who can play defense - like Ohio State or Alabama.

I'm a fan, not a coach and I don't know that Day and Meyer haven't looked at tons of film of the spread/shotgun v the QB under center in the red zone. I don't know how difficult it would be, or how much practice time it would require to switch systems inside the 20 or 10. Given their attention to detail, I can't imagine that they haven't given it a good deal of thought. But based on what I've seen through my fan biased eyes, the Bucks have had problems in the Red Zone for the past 9 years.
 
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Neat. If this were true, Clemson would have been in our rear-view mirror.

I get what I'm saying won't be popular, but I don't just say shit to be contrarian.

Charlie Kelly, is that you?

I don't hang the Clemson loss on Fields; actually he played very well in that game considering he only had 1 good knee.

justin-fields-clemson-fiesta-bowl.jpg
 
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Perhaps it was just a one week game plan but Fields only ran the ball 4 times last night vs 12 the week before against Corn. It looks like the coaching staff is progressively putting more faith in his arm. And why not? Those stats from 2 games are ridiculous.
I think a lot of that is based on the reaction of the defense to the option game. Nebraska said you'll have to beat us with Fields and took the running back more often than PSU did.

That being said, the tighter formations that Day used last night and the non option/under center plays run out of them were definitely designed to keep JF out of harm's way. They also suit Teague's running style more.
 
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