Tom Herman (Former Head Coach FAU Owls)

[Jagdaddy]

The argument of the other team having good players is out the window after VT lost two straight to ECU and Georgia Tech. They are not a good team at all, as I suspected. We played our worst, they played their best, and they out-coached us in almost every facet. It took the perfect storm and it happened. Matt Millan called it in the Kent State game in saying that he blames the coaches equal to the players in the loss for not adjusting at all. One half I could understand being taken aback. But there should have been substantial adjustments in the 2nd half and they never happened.

I was speaking more generally than to just the one game. I agree with the perfect storm analysis for that game, and my main coaching criticism would be the absence of RB touches until well into the second half. Youth and horrid execution can make things look a lot worse than they are from a coaching standpoint.

 

[AKAK]

Like a previous poster said. Sometimes small victories are best (and surely the most demoralizing) when we go 10 plays with 3 first downs instead of trying for the home run. A sign of a good coordinator IMO isn't how fast you can score it's can you sustain drives and avoid putting your team behind the 8 ball.

If you were referring to me... I just want to be clear that I'm not implying that's all they need to do, there are times when I want to see the hammer down. Absolutely... and I can live with one fast 3 and out... but, back to Josh's point about adjustments, when they make the tweak, and you haven't, stop pounding your head against the wall, take a little tempo out of it and get a little deliberate. If you get sacked on First Down, there's no need to sprint back up to the line to run a bubble screen on 2nd an 17.

 

[jwinslow]

I get the drops but it's not like they were dropping wide open first downs all game. Other than the dropped TD, long ball drop, and Dontre on the first series I too found the play calling horrible. You can't call plays worring if players are going to catch the ball or not.

Like it was said I too get the impression that TH freaks out when we get stopped a time or two and it gets amplified if we fall behind in that same stretch. Although it was Kent I liked the game plan we took. Spread the field to create space, run off tackle, Involve the backs/TE on quick routes and attack the middle of the defense where they just shot blitzes.

Like a previous poster said. Sometimes small victories are best (and surely the most demoralizing) when we go 10 plays with 3 first downs instead of trying for the home run. A sign of a good coordinator IMO isn't how fast you can score it's can you sustain drives and avoid putting your team behind the 8 ball. Too often, especially in our loses, our offense sputters because we fall behind due to going for broke. Which puts our defense right back out there and when the defense is getting worked like it was last year you can't do that

IMO going for the big hitter is a very low percentage play but when dialed up correctly is devastating. So in saying that I hope to see more play calls with the intention of getting 5-10 yards instead of shooting for 50+. Besides we have the speed and talent to make those 5 yards into 50 with a play made by our players.

Total side note I re watched the Kent game and body+ speed wise Jalin Marshall reminds me of Gonzo.

You can't? So you keep dialing up swing passes when the WR, qb and blockers fail on a lot of them?

It's also a lot easier to Chuck up a jump ball on the outside when you are getting obliterated every down by the pass rush. You need to be able to stand in there, and have the poise of a non freshman, to see the field and find the intermediate options in traffic.

going for the five yard gain was also a low percentage play. The runs got stuffed a lot. The typically high percentage swing passes and horizontal quick hitters were very spotty (timing off, inaccurate passes, missed blocks, mediocre moves after the catch).

They dropped at least four balls flat out with another 2-4 passes broken up. That's way too many for a young qb and offense to overcome. The two corey Smith drops were just plain dropped

People act like Herman doesn't love underneath passes. I think they use too many of them frankly but that team was flat out bad at executing them. Dontre dropped one to set the tone early. Others saw bad blocking on the perimeter. Finally they came back to the fake pop pass and eventual swing pass to dontre. The pass and or route was poor and an easy first down was missed.

The team just flat out failed to execute most of the plays. Some were schematic but they only routine thing they did not struggle with was fumbling the ball. The rest was an adventure and learning experience.

 

[jwinslow]

I would have liked to see the read option quick hitter to the tight end down the seam. The problem is the offense gave them no trouble at all with their formerly dominant inside zone running game.

 

[Jagdaddy]

If you were referring to me... I just want to be clear that I'm not implying that's all they need to do, there are times when I want to see the hammer down. Absolutely... and I can live with one fast 3 and out... but, back to Josh's point about adjustments, when they make the tweak, and you haven't, stop pounding your head against the wall, take a little tempo out of it and get a little deliberate. If you get sacked on First Down, there's no need to sprint back up to the line to run a bubble screen on 2nd an 17.

It goes to total game management I think: Seeing the offense, defense, and special teams as an integrated whole. Conversely, when the D gets a big turnover, go FAST on O and try to cath them flat-footed. To me a great example of a lack of awareness in this regard was the kickoff when OSU tied the VT game at 21. Sure, we have a practice of kicking to the corner and covering, and often getting guys down before they cross the 25. But in that situation with momentum and the crowd finally on your side, boot it as far as possible right down the middle and take the momentum-crushing kick out of bounds out of the equation.

 

[Taosman]

We had too many failures on every unit to overcome. But we still were tied up in the fourth quarter. It was not like we were being dominated or blown out. The mistakes added up to no consistency. That's what eventually lost us the game. Games like this happen to young teams early. I expect a completely different team Saturday night. I think we win a close one.

 

[bukIpower]

You can't? So you keep dialing up swing passes when the WR, qb and blockers fail on a lot of them?

It's also a lot easier to Chuck up a jump ball on the outside when you are getting obliterated every down by the pass rush. You need to be able to stand in there, and have the poise of a non freshman, to see the field and find the intermediate options in traffic.

going for the five yard gain was also a low percentage play. The runs got stuffed a lot. The typically high percentage swing passes and horizontal quick hitters were very spotty (timing off, inaccurate passes, missed blocks, mediocre moves after the catch).

They dropped at least four balls flat out with another 2-4 passes broken up. That's way too many for a young qb and offense to overcome. The two corey Smith drops were just plain dropped

People act like Herman doesn't love underneath passes. I think they use too many of them frankly but that team was flat out bad at executing them. Dontre dropped one to set the tone early. Others saw bad blocking on the perimeter. Finally they came back to the fake pop pass and eventual swing pass to dontre. The pass and or route was poor and an easy first down was missed.

The team just flat out failed to execute most of the plays. Some were schematic but they only routine thing they did not struggle with was fumbling the ball. The rest was an adventure and learning experience.

I wasn't advocating to stand in there to throw the deep ball the opposite in fact. My point is the deep ball becomes more effective when they have a reason to respect the short game. You don't always drive the ball in golf (unless you blow at golf like me) because sometimes its about putting yourself in position a shot from now to make a go at it. To me in that VT game we went for the the home run too early in our downs which put us in tough spots for 2nd and 3rd down.

As far as the short game jwins we will just have to disagree. I thought our short game was non existent.

 

[TampaBuckeyes]

The pressure that VT brought can do a lot of damage when you aren't expecting it. I saw cincinatti do the same thing against Atlanta in week 2. They put 9 guys within 2 yards of the l.o.s. almost every down and rant hard at the qb. They made Matt ryan uncomfortable all night and they shut down a high powered nfl offence. It just becomes overwhelming and when they weren't expecting it it's crippling. Puts an offense on a defensive mode where you're just trying to survive. Can't do that more than once or twice a season or offenses will plan for it but when you pull that gameplan out of nowhere.

 

[TampaBuckeyes]

I wasn't advocating to stand in there to throw the deep ball the opposite in fact. My point is the deep ball becomes more effective when they have a reason to respect the short game. You don't always drive the ball in golf (unless you blow at golf like me) because sometimes its about putting yourself in position a shot from now to make a go at it. To me in that VT game we went for the the home run too early in our downs which put us in tough spots for 2nd and 3rd down.

As far as the short game jwins we will just have to disagree. I thought our short game was non existent.

Everyone loves the big plays but when you score on deep passes it puts too much stress on your defense. I am more of a fan of the long sustained drives with a good mix of plays. To me the deep ball threat should only be there to keep defenses worried about it, to force the safeties to respect it and play off and give us a good short game. Everything I hear about these modern offenses is the other way around.

 

[jwinslow]

I wasn't advocating to stand in there to throw the deep ball the opposite in fact. My point is the deep ball becomes more effective when they have a reason to respect the short game.

what short game can osu force them to respect if they can't clear lanes for their backs, the outside wrs do little with the ball underneath and the defense is largely forcing the ball back into the adequate runners hand on the option?

what play should they have feared if called properly?

You don't always drive the ball in golf (unless you blow at golf like me) because sometimes its about putting yourself in position a shot from now to make a go at it. To me in that VT game we went for the the home run too early in our downs which put us in tough spots for 2nd and 3rd down.

Actually you can chuck it up to c deck and let the wr run under it, which is what jt was reduced to doing when nothing else worked.

They also went for a lot of 2nd down runs that were a complete and utter disaster, setting up 3rd and long . Go look up the play breakdown on the ozone. It was Michigan esque running on that down.

As far as the short game jwins we will just have to disagree. I thought our short game was non existent.

it was non existent but we disagree about whether they tried. The problem was almost everything was non existent.

My complaint with the deep ball was tossing it to guys who are not able and or equipped to win battles in traffic (dontre, Smith physically, Spencer in execution). I don't remember a single jump ball to Thomas.

 

[bukIpower]

Everyone loves the big plays but when you score on deep passes it puts too much stress on your defense. I am more of a fan of the long sustained drives with a good mix of plays. To me the deep ball threat should only be there to keep defenses worried about it, to force the safeties to respect it and play off and give us a good short game. Everything I hear about these modern offenses is the other way around.

Exactly. The deep threat needs to be shown but its best executed when teams don't expect it or when you set it up right

 

[bukIpower]

what short game can osu force them to respect if they can't clear lanes for their backs, the outside wrs do little with the ball underneath and the defense is largely forcing the ball back into the adequate runners hand on the option?

what play should they have feared if called properly? Actually you can chuck it up to c deck and let the wr run under it, which is what jt was reduced to doing when nothing else worked.

They also went for a lot of 2nd down runs that were a complete and utter disaster, setting up 3rd and long . Go look up the play breakdown on the ozone. It was Michigan esque running on that down.
it was non existent but we disagree about whether they tried. The problem was almost everything was non existent.

My complaint with the deep ball was tossing it to guys who are not able and or equipped to win battles in traffic (dontre, Smith physically, Spencer in execution). I don't remember a single jump ball to Thomas.

Got it and that we do agree on. If we are going deep do so to Thomas or even Smith. It's hard to really say what would've worked because who knows but I firmly believe if a team is going to show us the double eagle in our base formation then don't run it right away.

How about going 5 wide (with Heurman/Vannett as a option but not both) which forces them into nickle and out of double eagle. After the first play run hurry up and then motion into our base (which we can do because we have a TE as a WR in 5 wide) and even if the defense goes into double eagle they won't have their typical personnel to do so correctly. We can always motion into our base when we have their personnel were we want it because it'd be too late for them to substitute. IMO it wasn't as much about what plays it was about our formation, the tempo, and the personnel.

In saying that I do think we will not repeat tech. When I say that I mean going deep every drive and constantly getting behind the sticks.

 

[RB07OSU]

I was speaking more generally than to just the one game. I agree with the perfect storm analysis for that game, and my main coaching criticism would be the absence of RB touches until well into the second half. Youth and horrid execution can make things look a lot worse than they are from a coaching standpoint.

I totally understand that, no prob. My problem with feeding the RBs is that we did nothing to open the box for an effective run game. If we adjust at the half and run what we did against Kent State, the run game would have opened up considerably. Having persistent faith in the run game certainly works when you have Hyde running behind an NFL offensive line and the threat of Braxton taking off. We are nowhere near that now, particularly in the OL department. But to that end, you are completely right that youth exposed us considerably. I think this will be a very good offense by the end of the year and hell, it might be closer than we think.

But even having said that, Herman really did not do his job in the VT game...I won't attribute all the blame to him either, he cannot go out and catch the ball for our guys. Further, you cannot game-plan around your OL not blocking and WRs dropping perfect passes. However, there were high percentage plays against a cover zero bare that would have effectively pulled guys out of the box. We never called it and kept throwing low percentage deep bombs instead. I get that you want to exploit their risky strategy, but you still have to set it up properly. I'm not pinning the loss on Herman and nobody is here (and btw @Jagdaddy, this is not directed to you, but others in the thread)...we are simply saying that Herman should share the blame with the players for the loss, which is really not novel nor degrading given the circumstances. Great coaches overcome surprises and lack of execution in certain areas, he did not. It was one game and there is still plenty of reasons to believe in our OC, but to ignore the chinks in the armor thus far is delusional.

 

[zincfinger]

Exactly. The deep threat needs to be shown but its best executed when teams don't expect it or when you set it up right

You set up the deep pass by drawing the back-end of the defense close to the line of scrimmage. Once the back-end of the defense is playing close to and/or overly anticipating plays near the line of scrimmage, the deep pass is set up. Usually you have to do that by successfully running the ball and/or completing short passes.

But there was no set up required against Virginia Tech. Virginia Tech set up the long ball for OSU by scheme, because they put the back-end of their defense close to the line of scrimmage from the start of the game. The long ball was pre-set. And they did that in part because they didn't think OSU could consistently execute long passes under those conditions, either because they thought their corners were able to covers OSU's receivers in unsupported 1-on-1 situations, because OSU's novice quarterback couldn't make those passes under persistent pressure, because OSU's novice O-line would crumble prematurely, or because OSU's receivers wouldn't consistently catch the ball on deep throws.

And they were right.

 

[Jagdaddy]

I'm not pinning the loss on Herman and nobody is here (and btw @Jagdaddy, this is not directed to you, but others in the thread)...we are simply saying that Herman should share the blame with the players for the loss, which is really not novel nor degrading given the circumstances. Great coaches overcome surprises and lack of execution in certain areas, he did not. It was one game and there is still plenty of reasons to believe in our OC, but to ignore the chinks in the armor thus far is delusional.

No disagreement from me here. I just don't want to see people overreact about it the other way. I have a strong feeling that Barrett's going to mature really fast, and that when OSU finally has a QB who can make QUICK reads and deliver the rock accurately, ON TIME (sorry for the PSU CAPS) to the right guy on a consistent basis, the offense is going to really blow up. If Braxton actually becomes that guy, and I'm less optimistic about that ever happening, then forget about it: GAME OVER for defenses.