Tim Tebow (Blessed)

[NextBuck]

Anyone who uses pro-production to evaluate a college career is just ridiculous. That is just stupid. You have 3-4 years of college tape, production, and accomplishments yet you discredit all of those if he didnt do good in the pros? How can you discredit a player because he happened to be surrounded by talent? Leinart, Dorsey, Manning, Kosar, Charlie Ward, Danny Wuerffuel, etc were surrounded by crap loads of talent, so does that mean we only consider Manning/Kosar the only good QB's on that list because they happened to transition well to the pros?

Chances are that Troy Smith will never be a consistent pro-bowl QB, but that doesnt mean to me that I wouldnt want him leading my team in a game on the college level. I dont discredit his Heisman because he had Ted Ginn, Anthony Gonzalez, Pittman, and Wells surrounding him.

Are we going to discredit the accomplishments of Tim Tebow, Colt McCoy, and Sam Bradford because they happen to be surrounded by a lot of talent?

If Mark Sanchez turns out to be a pro-bowl QB, does that make him a better college QB than Leinart? I don't think so.

Also I don't think it is fair to judge Leinart yet. He is the backup to Kurt Warner who is currently a Top 5 QB in the league and past NFL MVP.

Basically, I just disagree with using pro-production and discrediting players surrounded by talent when it comes to judging a players college legacy.

 

[powerlifter]

So if a guy like Dorsey or Leinart is so good why can't they do anything but hold a clipboard in the NFL even when they ran a pro style offense in college?

I can understand an Eric Crouch not being a good NFL QB but a supposed top 5-10 all time college guy who is familiar with a pro style passing game and they can't do anything at the NFL level? It just doesn't add up.

Why does it make a difference? Do great college qb's have to produce in the NFL to be great college qb's? By that criteria OSU has never had a great qb.

 

[Dryden]

Why does it make a difference? Do great college qb's have to produce in the NFL to be great college qb's? By that criteria OSU has never had a great qb.

No, but the surrounding cast, quality of competition in the conference at that moment in time, and NFL-potential all need to at least be considered as a complete package, otherwise you end up with this:

 

[NextBuck]

No, but the surrounding cast, quality of competition in the conference at that moment in time, and NFL-potential all need to at least be considered as a complete package, otherwise you end up with this:

He wasn't a dual threat QB. He was a RB who happened to play QB for Nebraska. Huge difference between him and a guy like Leinart/Dorsey.

NFL potential means nothing on the college game. If that was the case then Tommy Fraizer sucks, Brad Smith should have played WR in college, and Chase Daniel should be a waterboy.

Also when it comes to surrounding cast most college legends had talent around them. Only guys like Elway and Flutie was amazing with the talent not seen on teams like Miami, Oklahoma, OSU, Michigan, etc.

I agree that competition should be taken into account, buy if a player plays in a major conference for multiple seasons, plays OOC games, and plays in multiple bowl games then he should get respect even if he doesnt play in the toughest conference ever.

 

[powerlifter]

No, but the surrounding cast, quality of competition in the conference at that moment in time, and NFL-potential all need to at least be considered as a complete package, otherwise you end up with this:



I agree with this...Not so much about NFL potential. Most qb's bomb at the NFL level as is. At the same time who can really judge if someone like Colt McCoy is more NFL prepared then Sam Bradford? Take into consideration the "system" is going to be different for each player(nfl and college). So their results could be misleading at first. I wouldn't hesitate to throw down Tommie Frasier as one of the best collegiate qb's ever,but he never had a prayer to run the option in the pro's.

When speculating the above bold, it's hard to come up with a complete answer to determine anything. If someone is to take that many impossible to prove variables into consideration..It just becomes a "this is my personal favorite qb" contest.

When someone pulls the stat card,it's rendered useless because of competition and or teammates/conference.

When someone pulls the winning percentage card,it becomes a teammate/conference battle once again.

So basically we are looking for an unstoppable qb on a horrible team who still never lost,and never had a bad game.

 

[Gatorubet]

In my mind one of the unquestioned great running back in college football history is Archie Griffin.

He scored - I think - 7 touchdowns in seven seasons as a pro. Is there anyone crazy enough to say that a two time Heisman winner and legend was not a great college running back because his professional career was not as rich as others' careers?

Edgerrin James was Offensive Rookie of the Year in 1999 and has 80 TDs. Anybody going to try to tell me that Edgerrin was a better college back than Archie?

The use of pro success - to me - is of very little relevance.

 

[NextBuck]

So basically we are looking for an unstoppable qb on a horrible team who still never lost,and never had a bad game.

Basically. I was thinking John Elway, but then I remembered that Stanford didn't win when he was there so not even Elway is good enough for this list.

Can I get a list of these QB's that they are talking about?

 

[jwinslow]

I was curious how long it would take for the Archie reference... I'm a bit surprised...

 

[Dryden]

Is there anyone crazy enough to say that a two time Heisman winner and legend was not a great college running back because his professional career was not as rich as others' careers?

http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/member.php?u=236

 

[Gatorubet]

 

[BB73]

Gatorubet = NDC

I frickin' knew it all along.

 

[schneider.360]

2001-2002 Josh Harris(can't find real stats) at least 40 passing tds,
40 career rushing tds. both school records and only second player to
ever do this in NCAA (Antione Randell El). at least 4,000 passing yds,
2,000 rushing yds (heisman votes). I went to bowling green while harris was the quarterback so I know his stats were similiar to Tebow's, I just can't corroborate it.

2003 Alex Smith: passed for 2,247 yds, 15 td and 3 interceptions,
rushed for 452 yds, 5 td (no heisman votes)

2004 Alex Smith: passed for 2,952 yds, 32 td and 4 interceptions,
rushed for 631 yds, 10 td (heisman votes)

2005 Chris Leak: passed for 2,639 yds, 20 td and 6 interceptions,
rushed for 81 on 105 attemps, 6 td (no heisman votes)

2006 Leak/Tebow: passed for 2,950/358 yds, 23/5 td and 13/1
interceptions, rushed for 31/468 yds, 0/8 td (no heisman votes)

2007 Tim Tebow: passed for 3,286 yds, 32 td and 6 interceptions,
rushed for 895 yds, 23 td (won heisman)

2008 Tim Tebow: passed for 2,747 yds, 30 td and 4 interceptions,
rushed for 673 yds, 12 td (heisman votes)

* i was going to do a yearly average but because of Leak's bad year
and unavailability of Josh Harris' two really good years, the numbers
wouldn't be representative.

-Chris Leak is the only QB under Meyer that was not considered for the
heisman. He was a pro style quarterback and not recruited by meyer.
-Alex Smith's career td/int ratio in college is 47/8. It is 19/31 in the pros.
-Meyer has coached 4 QBs. Alex Smith was a disaster, Harris and Leak
never played a down. Only time will tell with Tebow.

Now i have a couple disclaimers. I'm not saying being a bad pro quarterback takes away from your achievements in college I'm just using there pro stats (or lack thereof) as evidence of what they would do without Urban Meyer as their coach.

The point of this whole post is not to say Tim Tebow is a bad quarterback, he's not, he's great. But I think it is far too premature to even consider him one of the best ever. Instead, we're going to have to wait and see if Meyer's next quarterback, at the highest level of college football posts multiple 2,800 pass yd +/- 600 rush yd +/- with a 30/5 +/-, td/int ratio. If so, it's clear that Tebow is a product of Meyers (extremely good) system especially since Tebows stats are basically the same as Alex Smith's and Josh Harris'.

What I'm really trying to point out is that we need to give credit where credit is due, and Urban Meyer (as much as i hate him) isn't getting any.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Why does it make a difference? Do great college qb's have to produce in the NFL to be great college qb's? By that criteria OSU has never had a great qb.

No we haven't and like I said, how can you ignore the possibility that a "great" college QB that completely bombs in the NFL might just have been the product of all the talent around him? Take Matt Ryan off BC switch with Leinart and no one outside of chestnut hill has ever heard of Matt Leinart.

When a college player needs that much help around him to reach his "all time great" level I seriously question his all time great status.

If people have their dick that hard for pure college production then fine, start making room for Klingler, Ware and the Hawaii QB gaggle on your GOAT lists.

 

[NextBuck]

No we haven't and like I said, how can you ignore the possibility that a "great" college QB that completely bombs in the NFL might just have been the product of all the talent around him? Take Matt Ryan off BC switch with Leinart and no one outside of chestnut hill has ever heard of Matt Leinart.

When a college player needs that much help around him to reach his "all time great" level I seriously question his all time great status.

If people have their dick that hard for pure college production then fine, start making room for Klingler, Ware and the Hawaii QB gaggle on your GOAT lists.

You have no idea how Leinart would have fared at BC or vice versa. I think both still would have fared well.

We can do the same thing in the NFL. How would Peyton Manning fare with a team like Detroit over his career instead of Indy?

Also according to this logic I can say that Joe Flacco would have been a better QB at tOSU instead of Troy Smith.

The last three QB's you used were system QBs. No one here is saying that a Hawaii or Texas Tech QB is on a Top 10 list. I think most of us can tell the difference.

 

[NFBuck]

So if a guy like Dorsey or Leinart is so good why can't they do anything but hold a clipboard in the NFL even when they ran a pro style offense in college?

I can understand an Eric Crouch not being a good NFL QB but a supposed top 5-10 all time college guy who is familiar with a pro style passing game and they can't do anything at the NFL level? It just doesn't add up.

I understand your position, but the same argument can be made in reverse. Why did guys like Tom Brady go from being decent-good CFB QB's to great NFL QB's? Sometimes their game just doesn't translate to the NFL and vice/versa. I look at college guys at face value, 38-2, 34 straight wins, a NC, multiple records at a school with a very rich QB tradition, etc. Yeah, he was sourrounded by NFL talent, but I can't fault him for that. He was successful, that's my bottom line.

He obviously wasn't the most physically skilled guy, but he got the job done in college and was a great leader. I think that warrants top-10 consideration.